PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

919 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 15:49


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


How does this assist the OP as regards the parking contravention and their N244 dilemma?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1452163 · Replies: 45 · Views: 462

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 12:24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


OP, where is the TRO which they've supplied?

I can see your references to the summary and your take on the order.

But where is it?

Irrespectve of the construction which an adj might place on its wording, they must have some wording to go on. For this purpose it is irrelevant what they provided before, where is the TRO in their evidence?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1452033 · Replies: 89 · Views: 2,826

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 11:56


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


PCN - not a demand for payment, merely advice to the motorist that a penalty is payable which unless paid or successfully challenged would be demanded of the owner. 28 daysish allowed.

NTO - the demand for payment which unless successfully challenged or paid may be pursued. 28 daysish allowed. This allows owner to assemble and assess the evidence and compile reps.

NOA/NOR - within 56 days of receipt of any representations. This allows authority time to consider the reps and CEO's evidence.

Appeal - to be registered within 28 daysish.

It's a simple process which allows time for all parties to act in a considered way. Some might feel it drags. C'est la vie.

To paraphrase Incandescent, weight of evidence refers to quality and clarity of the arguments, not how many pages of A4 submitted.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1452015 · Replies: 54 · Views: 1,144

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


They're not CMC Laminates are they.

It's not all the letters that count. Does he have the NTO and Order for Recovery or, in addition to 'putting them in a drawer, has he now thrown them away.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451952 · Replies: 45 · Views: 462

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:08


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Discount period ends tomorrow.

On the basis of what we know, I'd pay it.

At present we seem to be inventing a menu of possible lines of defence when there is no evidence in your account that you have clearly stated that any apply or made representations to this effect.

If you are prepared to sign statements of truth to the effect that by pre-arrangement you expected your wife to be at the corner then you could try this at adjudication.

You know the truth, we don't?

Your choice.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451951 · Replies: 21 · Views: 320

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 08:21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


OP, pl don't write what you think we want to hear or embellish what actually happened.

For example, you wrote:
when i went to my car on the 28/11/2018 (which i believe was in the late morning) i noted multiple cars were still parked in the residents' bays. I checked if there was a ticket on my car and there was none. I also checked multiple other cars in the same bay and no tickets were attached to any of the cars. There was no signage in the bay

And if there was no signage and no PCN on your car then checking 'multiple other cars' is something you've tacked on to the events. You don't regularly check other cars for PCNs when you park or return to your car when there's no reason to do so, do you!

Anyway, you have a NTO issued 2 Jan. You must make reps no later than 31 Jan. If you regularly let you mail go unattended for 2 weeks, then the enforcement process could cause you severe financial problems.

The NTO is shocking. They may as well have included 4 pictures of your car in the grounds of Buckingham Palace for all the good the photos are at establishing that:
There was a restriction;
It's extent, both geographical and date;
That you were captured by this and in contravention.

As per cp, get all the photos - should be online.

Do not forget 31st deadline.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451936 · Replies: 2 · Views: 45

hcandersen
Posted on: Yesterday, 07:58


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


The debt is the company's - whose registered address is slightly different from the one in the council's 26 Nov letter, Levings Yard not being part of the address. Whether this is material or not, I don't know.

As you're up against time and increasing costs, and given what we know, I would pay now.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451933 · Replies: 45 · Views: 462

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 14:39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


So the school pick up time is 315. My wife would have parked, walked with our 2 year old in a buggy to the school.
Collected our 7 year old and 5 year old boys from separate classes from the school. They tend to dawdle, so after walking back to the car with the boys and pushing the buggy she reached the car at approx 340.



Having done this yesterday, the sequence is fresh in my mind. And as it is a sequence repeated daily by parents, whether the events were yesterday or 2 months ago would not alter the routine.

School pick-up time 3.15. This is the time at the classroom doors, reception probably coming out 5 mins before the infants. So parked at least by 3.10. And then we have a PCN on an unattended vehicle at 3.38 with your wife not back until 3.40.
And why would it take 20 minutes to get back from the school?

Inter-parent chit-chat is the answer!

You could not squeeze assisted boarding into this sequence, so I don't think any exemption applies.

And as regards her timings, the conversation and time of the photos, I'm still struggling to find a solution which fits.

Another pipe of shag needed.

What school did they go to?


Elementary, my dear Watson
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451680 · Replies: 29 · Views: 564

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:50


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


?
At present you are outside the scope of traffic regulations.

The registered keeper has decided to pay which is their right provided that by so doing they did not pay more than the discounted penalties. They are not obliged to try and transfer liability to you.

Presumably they'll charge you under your hiring agreement - nothing to do with road traffic contraventions, this is purely a contractual matter. Whether they would be permitted to do so, we do not know. If you post your hiring agreement we could review.

At present you have no standing in the matter as regards the penalties and you cannot approach the council.

On the basis of your account, any reps which you might have made would have failed. But you might have an argument regarding cumulative penalties in a very short period involving the same circumstances.

But we end up with too many what ifs which makes deciding upon a course of action difficult.

Your hiring agreement, the dates of the PCNs and corresponding dates of contraventions and what you're being charged by the hire company please.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451655 · Replies: 5 · Views: 127

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


You've blanked out the date, so we do not know whether you're within the 14-day discount period. If you are, then unsuccessful reps made within this period would see the discount re-offered.

The advice is not to not challenge, just don't risk the discount.

But if you're beyond the 14-day period, such considerations might be academic.

Date of PCN is?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451637 · Replies: 15 · Views: 233

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:03


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


OP, and the key info i.e. a copy of the permit with a commencement date would help.

You cannot be expected to pay twice for parking. Just because the council doesn't have a virtual permit system and doesn't provide an online voucher to be used pro tem until the post arrives is THEIR problem.

OP, let's see the permit please.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451600 · Replies: 17 · Views: 410

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 11:06


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Cutting to the chase:

The company vacated the premises and the unit has been empty for some time.

So you know the area and the restrictions intimately, don't you!

You tried to wing it by parking where you did but, as per cp and Incandescent, the line is substantially compliant.

Do not risk the discount.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451573 · Replies: 15 · Views: 233

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 11:01


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


In which case all you can do procedurally is wait for the NTO which they would issue if they wanted to pursue the penalty.

Of course it's possible that they've cancelled the penalty already, have you checked?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451571 · Replies: 10 · Views: 138

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 10:57


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Without the requirement for a time clock to be displayed within the TRO, there can be no contravention.
Given this, I ask that the adjudicator agrees that I displayed all that was needed and as such was parked lawfully.


Is what worries me. No sense of contrition or any apology.

Notwithstanding my stance on the legal point, you are at adjudication. May I suggest you try a more conciliatory approach:

I parked and I forgot to display my BB, something which I always do as detailed in my BB booklet. This was my mistake.

In normal circumstances I would have paid the penalty, however, as this was a genuine mistake I thought that I would make representations. In their responses the council referred me to the underlying legal support to the requirement to display a clock which I now know is not based on universal legislation or the booklet but the wording of each council's traffic orders. As this was drawn to my attention I thought I would investigate.

What I found convinces me that although a time-limited restriction is stated on the traffic sign the applicable order does not give legislative support to this and therefore my appeal is based on this point........

Just try putting yourself in the adj's shoes. Which approach would be the more likely to tip any balance with you, yours or the above?

Let me disabuse you of any notion that hearings are absolutely black and white, they are not. So how do you want to come across, barrack-room sm**t a**e or genuine driver who made a mistake?

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451568 · Replies: 89 · Views: 2,826

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 10:41


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


.?

One space measured to the left of the m/c barely reaches the post. NB. m/c, not the post.

The photo is inconclusive in proving that the front of the vehicle was more than a de minimis amount within the area, if at all.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451562 · Replies: 14 · Views: 190

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 10:38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


You have a PCN but no NTO, therefore these are informal reps.

You say their email stated 'formal reps', therefore you challenged incorrectly and 56 days is not relevant.

But the passage of time suggests that we need to check other aspects i.e. are you the registered keeper and were your details up to date on the date of contravention and have remained so since?

Pl forget the 56 days and get back on track.

Until you get an NTO there's nothing to do procedurally.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451561 · Replies: 10 · Views: 138

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 09:51


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Can we get back on track!

Council's best case:
Suspended area one car space 'either side of the P&D machine;
The P&D machine can be located by a driver and individual spaces identified and clearly marked;
Photos showing subject car wholly or partly in one of the marked spaces.

What do we have?
No P&D m/c in photos; (but can be located on GSV, opp Stable House);
Spaces not marked.

I wouldn't be in their shoes.

OP, pl confirm whether any of the spaces is marked.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451541 · Replies: 14 · Views: 190

hcandersen
Posted on: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 09:00


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


This is a bit like peeling an onion.

A perfectly plausible explanation is that the contravention occurred at around 3.40 after the car was parked and your wife went to collect children from school. ( I asked about the children before but still no answer from the OP. They are not incidental if they were there).

Driver returns children in tow. Their cherubic faces and their mother convince the CEO to not issue a PCN because assisted boarding is an exemption. However, unbeknown to her, a PCN had already been issued, and removed.(now you understand the need for clarity around the timings of events!)

So, did your wife, and her friend, have any children in tow, of what ages?

And if there were children, then they'd been collected. And the collection time of the school would nail the earliest time of the conversation etc.

Over to you OP:
Children; ages; collection time;

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451531 · Replies: 29 · Views: 564

hcandersen
Posted on: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 21:43


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


NTO issued 19 Dec.

Deemed served: 21st which is day 1 of 28-day period.

28-day period ends on 17 Jan.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451437 · Replies: 10 · Views: 126

hcandersen
Posted on: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 16:42


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


NOR dated 18th means last day of 28-day period allowed for registering an appeal is 16th Jan.

There have been adjudication decisions to the effect that stopping on the markings is not necessary as this would be contrary to the intention of the prohibition which is to improve road safety outside schools, this hardly being aided by stopping in the middle of the road as opposed to on the markings.

IMO, fundamentally the only reason this problem exists now is a misunderstanding of the effect of the 2016 General Regs amendment. This provides effectively that contraventions may be recorded by camera as follows:

The circumstances referred to in regulation 9A(3)© are that a vehicle is stationary in a civil enforcement area on—
c)a carriageway outside a school entrance which is marked in accordance with diagram 1027.1 of Schedule 6 and diagram 642.2A of Schedule 2 to the Traffic Signs Regulations;

Nowt to do with the contravention of stopping on the markings, it's being stationary ...on a carriageway.

So it appears to me that all adjudicators could be satisfied if authorities used the contraventions of stopped on the markings, when on the markings, and parked no closer than 50cm when not on the markings.

And markings must be at least 700mm from the edge of the carriageway...

Go for the not on markings argument but introduce the argument that in some instances the prohibition has been interpreted as applying to the width of the carriageway, otherwise the traffic management purpose would be undermined, but given that the contravention of not parked within 50cm was available to the authority, even using a camera, then there is no good reason why the correct contravention was not used in this case.

It's a thought.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451290 · Replies: 38 · Views: 605

hcandersen
Posted on: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 11:36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


As interesting as it might be, I don't see where the council's response time or methodology gets us.

Not only did the OP not provide compelling evidence of their notification to DVLA to TEC, they didn't provide it to the council either.

We consulted DVLA, who gave us this address and despite the owner's protestations to the contrary no evidence has been forthcoming to suggest that this is more than a registered keeper simply failing in their legal duty to notify DVLA of their change of details in a reasonable time. Takes 5 minutes to write and on the basis of the OP's account is wholly accurate.

And how to counter this truth?

1. Provide evidence of the dates DVLA were notified of and then changed the RK details.
2. Less solid but potentially relevant, provide more details of the June 2016 PCN.

OP, pl give us the dates and events for June 2016.
PCN, challenge(how and when); NTO(addressed to whom and at what address e.g. let old address be A and new address B etc.

Was the sequence of the combined events regarding the same RK and VRM..?
PCN 1 to A, while RK lived at B;
CC to ...on ....
OfR for PCN 1...
PCN(postal/by hand) on...

etc.

Instead of vague assertions, for the same VRM and RK does OfR to address A at the same time as NTO to address B apply?

Who knows?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451152 · Replies: 32 · Views: 385

hcandersen
Posted on: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


Be careful about waiting. Missing the deadline while waiting for the TMO is no a legitimate reason for being late.

You could at the authority 'quote, harangue and paragraph and with speeches charm the ear' and it would still go over their heads.

They have a mindset.

You challenge their thinking just as much by getting them to consult the TMO.

What you assert can only be countered by them producing a copy of the TMO showing that the location is not a designated parking place. Let them do the work.

You have until 7 Feb. to submit reps, but the 28th day is not a target, it's a limit.

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451104 · Replies: 23 · Views: 316

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 22:32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


I have made a formal complaint to the council also.


About what? They served the PCN on the address provided by DVLA.

I can also gain my old tenancy agreement and date when we handed in our notice I'm sure. I also have my removal company invoice.

I have requested all data on both tickets to be sent & also the information from the council tax department under the data protection act. To include the copies of the return to sender envelops.


You still think this is relevant and places a duty on the council as regards the address for service of notices unrelated to council tax. But it doesn't, so pl get off this, it's a distraction.

What you do need is evidence of the date on which DVLA received and actioned your change of RK details. It's that straightforward. And yet nowhere have you referred to DVLA, which begs the question: why?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1451008 · Replies: 32 · Views: 385

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 14:41


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


deleted.

@cp, if it were as easy as 'costs follow event' then we should advise accordingly.

IMO, it is not and we do not, and for good reason.

And on reflection, what is the event?

Reg 23(3) of the General Regs simply refers to an application to a District Judge. Implicitly this is in the singular, but in practice it is potentially a two-part event: firstly to TEC and then to a DJ in person. The council haven't refused to accept an out of time application because it is not a decision for them to make; they've simply expressed a view.

It must therefore follow as a matter of common-sense that the application to the DJ is actually a request to set aside or vary a prior judgment of the court. As I read it, this is a request to review the decision of the court officer. In this respect all a council do is to submit their evidence to the court. In this case they have applied correct procedure: it's not their task to join up an owner's dots. And in the absence of hard evidence, IMO they were acting properly to oppose the application. After all, the OP submitted no evidence as to when they moved, or when they updated their V5C/when any notification was sent to DVLA, and if there's no evidence then it didn't happen as far as TEC are concerned. (PS and explicitly criticising the council's officers for the OP's own shortcomings would endear them to no-one).

The OP would submit better evidence which might tip the balance, but this could hardly be laid at the door of the council.

So in the particular of this case, IMO the OP would have no hope of recovering costs against the council, but in the general situation as the N244 is to set aside a prior court decision, there is no reason why a council should be penalised unless they have manifestly acted improperly or unlawfully in submitting evidence to the court. In effect, if an applicant is unsuccessful with TEC but successful with a DJ then the application fee could be considered to be the price of not submitting a compelling case in the first instance.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1450889 · Replies: 32 · Views: 385

hcandersen
Posted on: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:48


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,006
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551


A parking place may be marked either by prescribed lines or:

3) The bay may be varied to contrast, in pattern or colour, from the surrounding parts of the road and any adjoining bays, in which case the marking may be omitted.


So, using the duck test, as all parts of this 'lay-by' are to the eye marked by the same colour and pattern of paving and there isn't a solid or other form of white line parallel to the centre-line, then it's a duck or, in this case, a dog, as in dog's breakfast.

IMO, a motorist has every right to consider this to be a parking place marked by contra-coloured and patterned paving, sub-divided into 2 by the evident partial white line.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1450870 · Replies: 23 · Views: 316

919 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 

New Posts  New Replies
No New Posts  No New Replies
Hot topic  Hot Topic (New)
No new  Hot Topic (No New)
Poll  Poll (New)
No new votes  Poll (No New)
Closed  Locked Topic
Moved  Moved Topic
 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 17th January 2019 - 07:55
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.