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ULEZ Exemption Checker Discrepancy Discussion
hustler6969
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 21:16
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Guys,

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, but since it'd be a TfL/council enforced charge, I thought you guys might know more or have a definitie answer.

I'm trying to plan ahead and dreading having to dish-out for a new car. My confusion is with the current T-Charge in central london and the upcoming ULEZ from April 2019.

Now my understanding is both T-charge and ULEZ have the same standard: i.e. petrol cars Euro 4 and newer are exempt. My understanding is that mine (petrol) is not Euro 4 (slightly confusing because I it was registered Dec 2004 and Euro 4 for petrol is 1 Jan 2005 onwards).

Now, when I check the TfL website T-charge checker it says I'm not exempt as I don't meet Euro 4. And yes, I've paid the T-charge several occasions.

Now when I check the TfL website upcoming ULEZ checker, it says I'm excempt, as I meet the 'at least Euro 4 standard'.

I'm confused now, which one is right and which one is wrong? Cuz how can both have the same requirement but I'm paying one and exempt from the other??

It'd be great if someone could confirm and help me plan my budget for next year (hopefully wont have to change cars and save some cash)!

Unfortunately, theres a disclaimer under the ULEZ which completel washes their hands out of any responsibility!

Any thoughts much appreciated
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post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 21:16
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stamfordman
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 21:25
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This belongs in the flame pit.

The key date is really 25 October 2021 when the zone will be vastly expanded and the exemption for those in the central zone ends.

2019 will only affect you if you have a non-compliant car and regularly want to drive in central London and live outside it.

In 2021 a 2004 car will be 17 years old - unless it's some amazing car it won't be worth much more than scrap.

But if the checker says it's OK it's OK - some cars were euro 4 before 2005/6. Ours is (reg in March 2005).

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 21:26
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hustler6969
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 21:38
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Well, I often have to drive through the zone in the evenings, so come April 2019 I might start getting charged.

On your last point, I still dont understand, if both T-charge and ULEZ are the same standard, why I am not exempt from T-charge (and have been paying it)? :S
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Incandescent
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 21:40
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If TfL produce and publish a facility that allows a citizen to check whether their car meets or does not meet the relevant emissions standard then the citizen is entitled to rely on it. If TfL then issue PCNs to cars shown in their app as compliant they are acting unfairly under common law.

Of course a citizen may make a mistake in entering his car details, in which case obviously TfL are not liable if the owner subsequently gets a PCN due to his error.
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hustler6969
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 21:47
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Well, on their page (https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-...rm-checker-ulez), once you put in your reg, they have this disclaimer:

Disclaimer

The compliance status of your vehicle for the ULEZ has been calculated based on the information you provided. It is your responsibility to ensure the information you provide is accurate. Every effort is made to ensure that the information we provide you is correct at the date of our response. However, we provide no warranty as to the accuracy of the information and accept no legal liability or responsibility for its accuracy. If you are in any doubt over your vehicle's Euro emission standard, please refer to your vehicle registration document - also known as a V5C - or contact your vehicle manufacturer.


Would this somehow mean they can massively cock-up and I have no legal recourse?
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stamfordman
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 22:08
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I can't think they use two different systems to check whether it's euro 4 or not. There is no difference between the T charge and ULEZ for petrol engines.

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hustler6969
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 22:12
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Yeah, hence my question again, how is it on the T-charge checker page I'm not exempt and the ULEZ checker, I am?..
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stamfordman
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 22:15
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have you asked TFL? What is your vehicle? are you inputting your car reg?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 22:16
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 23:23
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My understanding, correctly or otherwise, is that Euro standards are partially date based.

So Euro 4 came in for new models from the start of 2005, and all cars had to be Euro 4 by the start of 2006.

If your car is manufacturered (not registered) 2006 or later it must be Euro 4.

If manufacturered in 2005 it may be Euro 4.

If manufacturered 2004 or earlier it cannot be Euro 4 because the standard didn't exist at the time, even if it would have met Euro 4 standards.

The whole system is a mess though. It was designed to be pragmatic to gradually reduce emissions. Manufacturers had a year to switch and cars made during the switchover could still be sold, meaning the change was invisible to consumers. People didn't insist their car was Euro 4 because the seemingly identical one next to it was.

TfL would have been much better saying cars from a certain numberplate - say 55 - were exempt, accepting that the nature of the standard was that there was a gradual change over about eighteen months and it would be confusing for identical cars manufactured days apart to be exempt or not exempt. The fact they clearly can't even get a matching database compounds this.

However, if it says you are exempt I would screenshot it and take it at face value. It would be highly unreasonable for TfL not to cancel the charges if you get one. I would suspect the disclaimer is there to prevent it being used as proof of standard during sale.


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typefish
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 00:25
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I bought an almost-2015 registered car in September 2015 - Euro 5.

What if I don't want to get rid of my Euro 5 car?
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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 09:46
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QUOTE (typefish @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 00:25) *
I bought an almost-2015 registered car in September 2015 - Euro 5.

What if I don't want to get rid of my Euro 5 car?

I don't think your car is Euro 5, unless it says it on the V5C. Euro 5 didn't exist when it was made, so the manufacturer wouldn't have been able to get Euro 5 type approval.


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typefish
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 09:58
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Euro 5 did indeed exist in 2015.
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peterguk
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 10:11
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QUOTE (typefish @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 00:25) *
I bought an almost-2015 registered car

Is that like a 2014 registered car?


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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 10:37
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QUOTE (typefish @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 09:58) *
Euro 5 did indeed exist in 2015.

Regulation (EC) No 715/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 June 2007 on type approval of motor vehicles with respect to emissions from light passenger and commercial vehicles (Euro 5 and Euro 6) and on access to vehicle repair and maintenance information (Text with EEA relevance)


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The Rookie
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 10:51
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An EU5 car could be first registered until 31st August 2015, so if typefish's car was first genuinely registered in September 2015 it should be EU6.
https://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topics/emissions/testing/

Saying EU5 didn't exist when the car was made (irrelevant and NML doesn't know when it was made anyway) is incorrect.

Also saying it wouldn't have type approval would be wrong, EU5 type approval doesn't 'magically' stop when a car can't be sold in Europe, there are many markets were it could still be sold under it's original approval.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 10:53


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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 11:00
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Never mind, I read it as 2005 for some reason.


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hustler6969
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 13:20
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 22:15) *
have you asked TFL? What is your vehicle? are you inputting your car reg?


Yes, inputting the car reg. The call center aren't too interested, keep mindlessly asking me to use the link, which is what I'm telling them might be inaccurate; then when I pushed them they said its merely a 'guide' so to make my own decision...What a farce..

Its a 54 reg (registered 4th Dec 2004) VW Golf 1.6 FSI 5dr Hatchback (also known as MkV); believe its this one:
https://www.parkers.co.uk/volkswagen/golf/h...-5d-(ac)/specs/

Although just saying that now and looking at Parkers, Parkers seems to say its Euro 4!

I suppose my question then is why have I been being charged T-charge since April 2017 if I am Euro 4?? I'm gonna have a look at my congestion charging account now..



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 23:23) *
If manufacturered 2004 or earlier it cannot be Euro 4 because the standard didn't exist at the time, even if it would have met Euro 4 standards.

-----

However, if it says you are exempt I would screenshot it and take it at face value. It would be highly unreasonable for TfL not to cancel the charges if you get one. I would suspect the disclaimer is there to prevent it being used as proof of standard during sale.


Yeah, I've taken a pdf/screenshot, although doubt how much they'll honour it.

This post has been edited by hustler6969: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 13:23
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Churchmouse
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 14:32
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Do you have the vehicle's Certificate of Conformity?

QUOTE
How do I obtain a certificate of Conformity?
To order your certificate, please email type.approval@vwg.co.uk with your request stating your full chassis number. You will be contacted via email when your documents are available and being posted to you free of charge.


It should state the "Euro level" of the vehicle.

--Churchmouse
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hustler6969
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 23:16
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Right, I've just emailed, let's see.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 23:23
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QUOTE (hustler6969 @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 13:20) *
I suppose my question then is why have I been being charged T-charge since April 2017 if I am Euro 4??



That is the key question really, not why the ULEZ checker says it's OK.
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