Dropped kerb legacy, Dropped kerb no longer used as drive |
Dropped kerb legacy, Dropped kerb no longer used as drive |
Mon, 9 Dec 2019 - 15:19
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
PCN:
https://ibb.co/59mHZPF Photos: https://ibb.co/Y7GtSnL https://ibb.co/TwDQ0XR https://ibb.co/7kv8qnn https://ibb.co/R9jg0YH For years I've parked for short periods on a cul-de-sac near my local high street. I never noticed that there was a small dropped kerb, about 5cm high. There is no white line and, on this occasion, when I parked there, got out and walked away on the driver's side, I never saw it. I believe that it is a legacy dropped kerb as there is a church building partially on what used to, seemingly, be a drive. It is not now used as such as there is not enough space. The dropped kerb is not used as a footway as there is nothing on the other side To complicate things, I have been so occupied, that I have missed the 28-day window for an informal appeal (not that they ever cancel a PCN in Lambeth at this stage anyway). Is it too late to submit an informal appeal? Thank you in advance -------------------- Gumph
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Mon, 9 Dec 2019 - 15:19
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Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 22:16
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#41
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
I do not see the pastor's opinion on the purpose of the kerb matters in this, a legal matter
In the few emails we exchanged about this matter, he mentioned that the DK has been there for at least 30 years when he first came to the church; the 2nd building of the church, that squeezed in what may have once been a drive, even longer He could only speculate that it may have be there to assist push or wheel chairs or to cross the road (even though it leads nowhere and that there is a more logical crossing 20m down the road on the corner). Or, to give a gap between the parked cars. He did mention that he thinks it is a helpful wheelchair ramp e.g. He underscored that he really does not know the reason for the DK He mentioned giving permission to park there to someone doing work on the church or to another who had had their car windows smashed and wanted to keep an eye on the vehicle. It has also been used to transfer items from a lorry by trolley to the church. There is also, apparently, a property behind the church and the occupier sometimes uses the DK for her bicycle. He generally refers to its use as 'giving access'. None of the 'reason's mentioned touch on the 3 statuatory reasons for prohibiting parking adjacent to it. There are several nearby DKs to use for pedestrian or cycle crossing. The difference bwteen the kerb and the road is about 5cm I should mention that this cul-de-sac has been redeveloped with a block of flats. There are now several DKs that lead nowhere other that a brick wall or a shrub. They, too, are legacy DKs I would say The pastor does not want to get rid of the DK for the reasons above but he would like to see a white line across it so that his flock would be able to more easily avoid getting stung by the little trap -------------------- Gumph
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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 01:14
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#42
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Have you sent the representation I drafted for you?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 10:38
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#43
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
I admit that I find the pepipoo website challenging at times. For some reason, the to-and-fro of this discussion bifurcated into at least 2 different streams. If you, cp8759, now see what I see, your representation is not there. However, I did manage to open another stream, dated 12 Jan, and your effort is there but not today's query. The both are called Dropped kerb legacy. I have also used Fast or Add Reply to continue the conversation. I will copy this response to the 'other' stream just in case
So, I am sorry to say, I did not see your representation and, therefore, did not submit it. I am sorry for that as it is well-written. I was pressed for time and I did need to submit my representation and so I used one similar to the one I posted 11 Jan. I did add and emphasize, based on your suggestion, the fact that I received 2 NTOs and, therefore, a procedural impropriety had been committed However, the plot thickens! On 16/1 I email some addition evidence in the way of photos. I received the following reply from the Council: Date: Saturday, January 18, 2020 PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE LJ13354931 LOCATION Canterbury Grove CONTRAVENTION 27 - Parked adjacent to a dropped footway DATE OF ISSUE Monday, November 04, 2019 Dear Mr Thank you for your letter received on Monday, 13. January 2020 regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). The concerns raised in your letter were dealt with in our previous letter dated 12.12.2019, which clearly advised you of the next course of action you may take. It is necessary for you to follow the process as explained. If you need further information about this PCN, you can visit our website at www.lambeth.gov.uk/parking. For more details regarding how we use your personal information please view our Privacy Notice at www.lambeth.gov.uk/parking-transport-and-streets Yours sincerely Peter Thomas Correspondence Manager, Environment Services, London Borough of Lambeth I replied with the following which should be self-explanatory: I am confused. The first time I contacted the Council about the above PCN was on 9/12 when I requested an extension to the discounted period (see below). Your letter of 12/12 did not address that request. I asked that, if the extension were not granted, would I need to wait until I received an NTO before I sent in a formal appeal. This question also went unanswered Upon re-reading your letter of 12/12, you seem to be rejecting my Representation. I had not even made any appeal at that point, neither informal or formal. It is not clear how you can reject an appeal that has not been made. Requesting an extension of the discount period is not an appeal My first and only appeal was submitted on the Lambeth website on 13/1 for which I received a confirmation. Had I already used up my formal appeal, I would not have been able to submit another representation on the website In addition, I submitted additional photographic evidence for my formal appeal on 16/1. I have received no confirmation of this evidence having been received and taken into consideration Furthermore, the appeals form that you included with you letter of 12/12 was for Representations to Lambeth Council, not to the London Tribunals. The London Tribunals’ Your right to appeal form was not provided to me, which is my right if this matter had, indeed, proceeded to that stage. I also should have been sent a verification code for this appeal; I was not Please clarify this matter. Is the Council considering my formal appeal from 13/1 or do they consider a rejection 1 month prior to the submission sufficient? If I am now obliged to appeal to the Tribunals, please send the requite forms and rights. I think it is clear that sufficient procedural improprieties have been made to warrant cancelling this PCN Regards I include a link to the letter I received from the Council 12/12. I believed it to be a reply to my request for an extention to the discount period https://ibb.co/hsNLMzq I admit that I find the pepipoo website challenging at times. For some reason, the to-and-fro of this discussion bifurcated into at least 2 different streams. If you, cp8759, now see what I see, your query of 18/1 is not there. However, I did manage to open another stream, dated 12 Jan, and your query is there but not your effort. They both are called Dropped kerb legacy. I have also used Fast or Add Reply to continue the conversation. I will copy this response to the 'other' stream just in case So, I am sorry to say, I did not see your representation and, therefore, did not submit it. I am sorry for that as it is well-written. I was pressed for time and I did need to submit my representation and so I used one similar to the one I posted 11 Jan. I did add and emphasize, based on your suggestion, the fact that I received 2 NTOs and, therefore, a procedural impropriety had been committed However, the plot thickens! On 16/1 I email some addition evidence in the way of photos. I received the following reply from the Council: Date: Saturday, January 18, 2020 PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE LJ13354931 LOCATION Canterbury Grove CONTRAVENTION 27 - Parked adjacent to a dropped footway DATE OF ISSUE Monday, November 04, 2019 Dear Mr Thank you for your letter received on Monday, 13. January 2020 regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). The concerns raised in your letter were dealt with in our previous letter dated 12.12.2019, which clearly advised you of the next course of action you may take. It is necessary for you to follow the process as explained. If you need further information about this PCN, you can visit our website at www.lambeth.gov.uk/parking. For more details regarding how we use your personal information please view our Privacy Notice at www.lambeth.gov.uk/parking-transport-and-streets Yours sincerely Peter Thomas Correspondence Manager, Environment Services, London Borough of Lambeth I replied with the following which should be self-explanatory: I am confused. The first time I contacted the Council about the above PCN was on 9/12 when I requested an extension to the discounted period (see below). Your letter of 12/12 did not address that request. I asked that, if the extension were not granted, would I need to wait until I received an NTO before I sent in a formal appeal. This question also went unanswered Upon re-reading your letter of 12/12, you seem to be rejecting my Representation. I had not even made any appeal at that point, neither informal or formal. It is not clear how you can reject an appeal that has not been made. Requesting an extension of the discount period is not an appeal My first and only appeal was submitted on the Lambeth website on 13/1 for which I received a confirmation. Had I already used up my formal appeal, I would not have been able to submit another representation on the website In addition, I submitted additional photographic evidence for my formal appeal on 16/1. I have received no confirmation of this evidence having been received and taken into consideration Furthermore, the appeals form that you included with you letter of 12/12 was for Representations to Lambeth Council, not to the London Tribunals. The London Tribunals’ Your right to appeal form was not provided to me, which is my right if this matter had, indeed, proceeded to that stage. I also should have been sent a verification code for this appeal; I was not Please clarify this matter. Is the Council considering my formal appeal from 13/1 or do they consider a rejection 1 month prior to the submission sufficient? If I am now obliged to appeal to the Tribunals, please send the requite forms and rights. I think it is clear that sufficient procedural improprieties have been made to warrant cancelling this PCN Regards I include a link to the letter I received from the Council 12/12. I believed it to be a reply to my request for an extention to the discount period https://ibb.co/hsNLMzq -------------------- Gumph
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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 10:58
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#44
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Member Group: Members Posts: 7,244 Joined: 5 Jan 2007 From: England Member No.: 9,919 |
@Gumph
Not sure what you mean by two streams you only have one thread titled dropped kerb legacy and its not been merged. You appear to have double posted in the same thread. |
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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 13:42
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#45
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
@Gumph Not sure what you mean by two streams you only have one thread titled dropped kerb legacy and its not been merged. You appear to have double posted in the same thread. The OP has another thread titled "Dropped Kerb Own Drive", but that appears to be a different case (albeit another dropped kerb). -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 14:18
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#46
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Member Group: Members Posts: 7,244 Joined: 5 Jan 2007 From: England Member No.: 9,919 |
@Gumph Not sure what you mean by two streams you only have one thread titled dropped kerb legacy and its not been merged. You appear to have double posted in the same thread. The OP has another thread titled "Dropped Kerb Own Drive", but that appears to be a different case (albeit another dropped kerb). Yes i saw that and does appear a fifferent case. I think it may have been a site glitch if he didnt see CPs post as ive had exactly the same isdue before where I assumed the post had been removed only to find it there the next time i viewed. |
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Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 22:01
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#47
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Post up the rest of the Notice to Owner, the council might have handed you a winning hand.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 11:50
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#48
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
I have today received another non-responsive letter from the Council, as well as a Charge Certificate
They have ignored my formal appeal and have not, since the 12/12 letter which pre-dated my appeal, mentioned teh EF&T Date: Saturday, January 18, 2020 PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE LJ13354931 DATE OF ISSUE Monday, November 04, 2019 LOCATION Canterbury Grove CONTRAVENTION 27 - Parked adjacent to a dropped footway Dear Mike Welch Thank you for your letter received on Monday, 13. January 2020 regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). The concerns raised in your letter were dealt with in our previous letter dated 12.12.2019, which clearly advised you of the next course of action you may take. It is necessary for you to follow the process as explained. If you need further information about this PCN, you can visit our website at www.lambeth.gov.uk/parking. For more details regarding how we use your personal information please view our Privacy Notice at www.lambeth.gov.uk/parking-transport-and-streets Yours sincerely Peter Thomas https://ibb.co/3s9XJLL https://ibb.co/xMWWcrY -------------------- Gumph
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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 15:11
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#49
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,158 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
I do not see the pastor's opinion on the purpose of the kerb matters in this, a legal matter Well I would venture to say that you are misinformed. There is clearly NO external, non-specific purpose for the dropped footway because: There is no matching dropped footway across the carriageway; There is no cycle lane either on the carriageway or the footway nor marked public right of way off the footway at this point which is accessible to cyclists; Therefore it is clear that the ONLY purpose could be for the benefit of the occupier as regards this specified purpose: (iii)assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway, cycle track or verge; And across means accessing and exiting the footway at this point; And the adjacent property is the church; And the occupier is the Pastor. |
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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 17:24
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#50
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
Well, if that is the ONLY purpose, it is not used for (iii)assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway, cycle track or verge; It is too narrow for anything much larger than a motorcycle. The pastor does not claim it is used for vehicles, only for some pedestrians to, perhaps, reach a car waiting in the road. I have a dropped footway at the end of my house drive. Do I get to decide whether parking adjacent to it is prohibited or not, beyond giving permission for someone to stop there?
My focus now is to figure out if the Council thinks I have appealed or not. They seemingly decline an appeal on 12/12 even though I had not made one. I have not heard about my formal appeal filed last week. Although I have an email confirmation, the letter received today does not seem to acknowledge its existence. I have never been given my rights to appeat to the E&TA nor have I been given the necessary verification code to do so. In the meantime, I have received a Charge Certificate and the fine has risen to £165 NOTE: there seems to be a parallel thread to this matter; I don't know why or how. Neither thread contains all contributions. I do not know how to merge the two -------------------- Gumph
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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 17:41
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#51
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
NOTE: there seems to be a parallel thread to this matter; I don't know why or how. Neither thread contains all contributions. I do not know how to merge the two You have three threads:
-------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 14:18
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#52
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
Thank you for your offer. The 3 titles that you cited are 3 different PCNs (I had a rough patch)
What I am trying to say is the I have 2 different Dropped kerb legacy 'streams' for lack of a better word. This one and also http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1542380 They could merge at any moment but now and for the last couple of weeks the most recent messages are not present on both streams; some appear on one but not on the other and vice versa The last message I have on the other (address above) is 14/1 OP, you are missing the point. From his perspective as occupier, what purpose does he say the dropped kerb serves??? If you can merge them, it would be better for us all After having written to Lambeth again asking them my status, I rang the E&TA. Someone there was baffled by the situation. They said that I could not appeal to the Tribunals without the code which, as I have mentioned, has not been supplied by Lambeth. Also, it seemed to her, that, as I have now received a Charge Certificate, it is 'too late' for an appeal as the matter seems to be with the Northampton County Court. I now intend to write them as I have the E&TA following the above-mentioned conversation -------------------- Gumph
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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 14:45
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#53
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
I apologise to anyone following this thread. Another, parallel thread, using the same Dropped kerb legacy has appear. Messages sent between 9/12-14/1 appear on this thread; messages from and after 14/1 appear, for some reason, on the other thread
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1544615 I, again, apologise, if it seems that any questions have been ignored. As the other (see link above) thread has all recent activity, I will continue with that one Sorry for any inconvenience. I have no idea what has happened It seems that all messages from 9/12-14/1 were shunted to a parallel thread of the same title. Apoligies. I don't know what happen. I will continue to use this thread as it has the most recent correspondence -------------------- Gumph
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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 14:55
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#54
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
I apologise to anyone following this thread. Another, parallel thread, using the same Dropped kerb legacy has appear. Messages sent between 9/12-14/1 appear on this thread; messages from and after 14/1 appear, for some reason, on the other thread Would you stop with this nonsense? The links you're providing are just to different posts in the same thread - you only have one "Dropped kerb legacy" thread, this one! -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 15:03
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#55
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
I have just spoken with Lambeth Parking and clarified much of the mystery, which, in turn, has increased the frustration
Apparently, 'all corresondence with Lambeth parking is considered an appeal'. Therefore, when I, on 9/12, requested an extension to the discount period, Lambeth took this as a formal appeal. This is the receipt of that online request: Form submission from: Submit a request to pay the discounted rate after the 14 day grace period - form On 12/12, Lambeth wrote me, I thought in response to this request, and rejected my 'appeal'. No wonder it did not make any sense. All I had done was ask a question; I had not made an appeal of any kind What I did not notice until today, however, was that, above the salutation, there was included an Appeal Code. In short, I was discussing a discount extention, Lambeth was sending me off to the Tribunals However, on the same day as the 12/12 letter, Lambeth sent me 2 identical NTO notices, one dated 9/12, the other 12/12. Representation forms, asking that it be returned to Lambeth, were included with both. I concluded that I had been denied the extention and had lost the chance to make an informal appeal. And, so, I made a formal appeal online 13/1 which was confirmed by email The Lambeth agent also said, as I had been send a Charge Certificate, that I must appeal to Northampton CC but that, for some reason, I could not do so until 10 February. It is all pretty bonkers to me -------------------- Gumph
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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 15:45
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#56
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
I intend to send this off to the Tribunals today, comments welcomed:
On 9/12, I filled in an online form requesting an extension to the discount period for a PCN issued 4/11. I received an online confirmation 'Form submission from: Submit a request to pay the discounted rate after the 14 day grace period - form' On 12/12, Lambeth wrote me, I thought in response to this request, and rejected my 'appeal'. It did not make any sense. All I had done was ask a question; I had not made an appeal of any kind On the same day as the 12/12 letter, Lambeth also sent me 2 identical NTO notices, one dated 9/12, the other 12/12. Representation forms, asking that it be returned to Lambeth, were included with both. I concluded that I had been denied the extension and had lost the chance to make an informal appeal. And, so, I made a formal appeal online which was confirmed by email I heard nothing back except references to Lambeth’s 12/12 letter and, so, I today rang the Council. I was told that ‘any correspondence with the Council is considered an appeal’. And, therefore, my online query for an extension was taken as an appeal What I did not notice until it was pointed out today was that, above the salutation in the 12/12 letter, there was included an Appeal Code. There was no mention of my right to appeal to the Tribunals nor were that any explanatory leaflets to that effect. In short, I was discussing a discount extension, Lambeth was sending me off to the Tribunals. It is not clear why Lambeth sandwiched this appeal code in between 2 NTOs In short, I have not been given the right to make a formal appeal to Lambeth. And, due to the confusion caused by the non-responsive letter of 12/12, I have not been able to make a timely appeal to the Tribunals. If this matter cannot be returned to Lambeth for a formal appeal, I ask for the right to appeal to the E&TA now. I believe that Lambeth has made significant procedural improprieties that my rights in this matter have been denied -------------------- Gumph
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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 16:10
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#57
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
I apologise about the 2 threads confusion. I have just begun to use Pepipoo and have never had so many messages. I thought that the messages just rolled on forever. I did not realise that they eventually break off into pages with the initially posting frozen at the top. This seemed to create a gap when it had, in fact, just changed pages. Sorry, Fredd, for the 'nonsense'
-------------------- Gumph
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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 16:16
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#58
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
I did not realise that they eventually break off into pages with the initially posting frozen at the top. At the risk of confusing you further, if you prefer not to see the original post at the top of every page of your thread, you can change this behaviour; click on Options at the top right of the first post in your thread, and under Display Modes switch to Standard instead of Linear+. -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 16:51
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#59
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Member Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 15 Oct 2019 From: South London Member No.: 106,185 |
Thanks, Fredd. For the moment, I think I can live it-now that I know how it works
-------------------- Gumph
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Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 18:11
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#60
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
So, I am sorry to say, I did not see your representation and, therefore, did not submit it. I am sorry for that as it is well-written. I was pressed for time and I did need to submit my representation and so I used one similar to the one I posted 11 Jan. I did add and emphasize, based on your suggestion, the fact that I received 2 NTOs and, therefore, a procedural impropriety had been committed Show us exactly what you sent. Tell us how you sent it (online or by post) and whether you have proof (screenshots, email confirmation, certificate of posting). Tell us the dates that you send this representation. Please don't digress or go into anything else, for now you just need to answer these questions in order to receive advice as to the next steps. Do not write to the tribunal. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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