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Milton Keynes Council - Parked in restricted area (long faded/gone yellow lines)
GhostWKD
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 18:48
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Hi guys,

Had a quick look and struggling to find other posts, sure there will be some so will continue looking...

Got the attached PCN for 01 Parked in a restricted street. By that I assume they mean the fact many many years ago there were once yellow lines where I parked. There are most definitely not any there now (heavily faded lines start to turn into this layby but there aren't any there) and there is no signage implying any issues parking there.

Presumably this will be as simple as replying that there are no signs or roadmarkings indicating any parking restrictions?

Many thanks

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post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 18:48
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 20:04
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This sign might be against you,

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0437884,-...3312!8i6656

But its not correct. A CPZ governs yellow lines, it should be a restricted zone. then the YL can be dispensed with (There needs be consistency throughout the country so the different signs can be easily understood.
Without yellow lines even in a restricted zone of that size repeaters should be used


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GhostWKD
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 21:25
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 21:04) *
This sign might be against you,

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0437884,-...3312!8i6656

But its not correct. A CPZ governs yellow lines, it should be a restricted zone. then the YL can be dispensed with (There needs be consistency throughout the country so the different signs can be easily understood.
Without yellow lines even in a restricted zone of that size repeaters should be used


Thanks did wonder if there might be something like that. I'll take a look from the direction I come in to see if there is similar. Location is here;

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0359558,-...3312!8i6656

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DancingDad
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 21:32
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 21:04) *
This sign might be against you,

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0437884,-...3312!8i6656

But its not correct. A CPZ governs yellow lines, it should be a restricted zone. then the YL can be dispensed with (There needs be consistency throughout the country so the different signs can be easily understood.
Without yellow lines even in a restricted zone of that size repeaters should be used


Nah, though MK would probably try to use it.
Where OP parked is, to all intents and purposes a marked bay.
No yellow lines, purpose built layout for vehicles to pull into.
Different surface to indicate not part of the normal carriageway.
It's a parking space.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 21:44
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 22:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 21:04) *
This sign might be against you,

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0437884,-...3312!8i6656

But its not correct. A CPZ governs yellow lines, it should be a restricted zone. then the YL can be dispensed with (There needs be consistency throughout the country so the different signs can be easily understood.
Without yellow lines even in a restricted zone of that size repeaters should be used


Nah, though MK would probably try to use it.
Where OP parked is, to all intents and purposes a marked bay.
No yellow lines, purpose built layout for vehicles to pull into.
Different surface to indicate not part of the normal carriageway.
It's a parking space.


An argument I would be happy to put, just pre empting the rejection, and must admit to a bit of worry particularly with the faded DYL leading in and out of the layby its really a blocked of gateway to a development site


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Incandescent
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 23:17
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There can be no doubt from your photos as to the almost complete disappearance of any DYLs where you parked, ( a few feet remaining at each end). Whilst there is the "substantial compliance" argument that the council may employ, I cannot see how any adjudicator can possibly conclude that the yellow lines are substantially compliant.The plain fact is they are not there !! Clearly it was once intended as the entrance to a development that has yet to take place, and the MK Parks department has put in shrubs and plants to make it look nice.

However, it's some weeks, or even months before you might have to go to adjudication. Firstly, you should submit an informal challenge stating that there are no yellow lines where you parked, single or double, therefore the PCN was incorrectly issued and must be cancelled. Post up their reply when you get it, and we can take it forward from there. They will, when they reject this, give you the beguiling offer of the discount again. This is when you have to stand your ground and wait for the Notice to Owner and appeal that, and forego the discount. Only at this point will anybody with any greymatter in their head look at your reps, all the informal reps are dealt with by low grade staff who just issue boggo standard rejection letters.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 23:21
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stamfordman
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 09:20
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We had another case recently in one of these MK laybys- I'll see if i can find it but sadly a lot of OPs don't put proper descriptors in the thread titles.
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GhostWKD
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 10:33
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Had a look on the way in to work today and there is indeed a controlled zone sign from the approach I take in to work.

Thinking of sending this as a first appeal of the ticket;

Hello,

I am writing regarding PCN xxxxxxxxxx. I request that this PCN be cancelled on the basis that there is no signage and indeed no markings indicating that the layby my vehicle was parked in has any parking restrictions. The yellow lines along the road end at the beginning of the layby and begin once more after the layby.

Many thanks,
Alex

I know full well that they'll blanket decline the first appeal so wonder if I'm overthinking it a little at this stage? Trimmed alot of the fat from the proposed reply already mind.

Thanks,
Alex
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DancingDad
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 11:42
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Got to start somewhere so may as well be the obvious challenge.
And simple works for me.
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baroudeur
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 13:47
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QUOTE (GhostWKD @ Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 21:25) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 21:04) *
This sign might be against you,

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0437884,-...3312!8i6656

But its not correct. A CPZ governs yellow lines, it should be a restricted zone. then the YL can be dispensed with (There needs be consistency throughout the country so the different signs can be easily understood.
Without yellow lines even in a restricted zone of that size repeaters should be used


Thanks did wonder if there might be something like that. I'll take a look from the direction I come in to see if there is similar. Location is here;

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0359558,-...3312!8i6656


GSV history back to 2010 shows it was a road junction with DYLs going well into the development area and the yellow lines are the originals dating back at least that far!
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hcandersen
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 14:18
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The authority's photos do not show, nor do they appear to attempt to show, any yellow line.

IMO, this is about evidence, and 2010 GSV v contemporaneous photos and OP's assertion all within a pot stirred with the spoon of probabilities....
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cp8759
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 10:49
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 22:44) *
An argument I would be happy to put, just pre empting the rejection, and must admit to a bit of worry particularly with the faded DYL leading in and out of the layby its really a blocked of gateway to a development site

A reasonable motorist might well think that bit of yellow line is to protect the dropped kerb and to stop people parking partially on the carriageway.


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baroudeur
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 14:28
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 14:18) *
The authority's photos do not show, nor do they appear to attempt to show, any yellow line.

IMO, this is about evidence, and 2010 GSV v contemporaneous photos and OP's assertion all within a pot stirred with the spoon of probabilities....


There are yellow lines, however poor their condition, hidden in the photo by the car but, as you say, are not apparent in the photos submitted by the OP.

The car appears to be obstructing a dropped kerb the presence of which would exclude any possibility that the area is a bay of any sort

Avebury Boulevard

There are a number of these "bays" around Central Milton Keynes and they provide regular donations to the parking pot. There is one on GSV a little further down the road!
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DancingDad
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 15:32
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 15:28) *
......... a dropped kerb the presence of which would exclude any possibility that the area is a bay of any sort
..........


???

Plenty of DKs in parking places..... enough that being in a designated parking place is an exemption to the DK legislation
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hcandersen
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 20:51
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No more dated GSV pl.

OP, pl post ALL the authority's photos. Not yours or anyone else's, just theirs!
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GhostWKD
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 11:16
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Hi, just to clarify the above were my photos. The authority's are included in their PDF response to my first challenge.

First challenge was sent with below email;

QUOTE
Hello,

I am writing regarding PCN MKXXXXXXXX.

I request that this PCN be cancelled on the basis that there is no signage and indeed no markings indicating that the layby my vehicle was parked in has any parking restrictions. The yellow lines along the road end at the beginning of the layby and begin once more after the layby.

Many thanks,
Alex xxxx
Owner of vehicle XXYYXXX


They have today replied with the attached message.

Do I really have to wait 28 days to be able to formally challenge this? The fact their defense relies on the non existent yellow lines surely means that this won't stand? Even their photo shows barely a scrap of yellow line as it comes in by the dropped kerb.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 11:24
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This case is similar (same or nearby location) although MK gave a different contravention - you can see they are trying to work out out to enforce in these gateways.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=119361

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 11:25
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hcandersen
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 12:42
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Viewing photos embedded in other docs is taxing.

Are their photos available online??? Pl post. OP, these are the key evidence so can we avoid going off piste in response to your procedural questions and deal with the evidnce against you.
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GhostWKD
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 12:45
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 13:42) *
Viewing photos embedded in other docs is taxing.

Are their photos available online??? Pl post. OP, these are the key evidence so can we avoid going off piste in response to your procedural questions and deal with the evidnce against you.


From googling I don't think MK make their photos available online. I'll take a look if I can snip them and host them myself.

Edit:

Photos are terrible quality because of how they were provided by the council

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0...amp;oe=5B50236B


This post has been edited by GhostWKD: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 12:54
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cp8759
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 12:59
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QUOTE (GhostWKD @ Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 13:45) *
Photos are terrible quality because of how they were provided by the council

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0...amp;oe=5B50236B

I think the photos clearly show you were not parked on yellow lines.


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