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NIP Recieved - Running a red light - unsure of driver, help!
captaincharisma
post Sun, 8 Feb 2009 - 23:36
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Hi all,

I've read through a lot of the really helpful topics here before posting, but I just wanted to ask something specific to my situation;

NIP received within 14 days: yes
Am I the Registered Keeper: yes
Was I driving: no
Do I know who was driving: yes

But my problem is this - at the time of the incident, my car was on sale locally (only advertised by a small poster on the passenger window) and on the day in question, 3 people had the car for a test drive - I was also in the car at the time.

Now, I have a good idea who the driver was at the time of the offence (due to the time specified in the NIP) but in terms of driver details, all I have is a name and a mobile number! I've tried to call the number and now there is no response.

I am going to send a letter initially requesting photographic evidence, hopefully to at least confirm that I wasn't the driver (I would be more than happy to send a photocopy of my photocard licence to back that up), but what do I do about the lack of driver contact details?
Another thing in my defence (hopefully) is that I can send a copy of the registration certificate of the new car I bought, prior to attempting to sell my old one!!


Anyone have any thoughts/tips as to how I can approach this?

Thanks in advance.
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post Sun, 8 Feb 2009 - 23:36
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Glacier2
post Sun, 8 Feb 2009 - 23:49
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Did you record the names and addresses of those that took your car for test drive?
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captaincharisma
post Sun, 8 Feb 2009 - 23:50
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No I'm afraid not. I didn't think I'd need to, especially as I was in the car at the time anyway.
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Glacier2
post Sun, 8 Feb 2009 - 23:53
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The CPS will argue that you should have recorded their details. By having their details you could save yourself a load of bother.
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captaincharisma
post Sun, 8 Feb 2009 - 23:58
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That's a fair point. And in hindsight, it's something I should have done as a basic thing.

I definitely wasn't driving though, and I'm happy to send my license and proof of ownership of a new car to perhaps strengthen my claim, but with regards to the lack of information about the actual driver...is this something that will come back around to me?

I wouldn't like to think that I'd be charged/given points/fined for something that I actually didn't do!
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Glacier2
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 00:03
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If you send them a list of names and addresses, they will reply saying that you have not complied with S172 and that you must name one driver. If you don't name one driver they will will then charge you with failure to supply the information and you could be looking at 6 points and a £1000 fine. You would then have to prove to the magistrates that you did everything in your power to id the driver.
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davepoth
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 00:05
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You have a name for them, which is something.

Depending on how worried you are about it you could always google them, or check the phone book, or even go and check the electoral roll. They'll be local to you if they saw a sign in the car window, so it's worth a punt.


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captaincharisma
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 00:09
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But at present, or at least since receiving the NIP, 'everything in my power' in this case would be using all the details I have at my disposable.

All I currently have is a mobile phone which no one picks up, and a name. I've tried repeatedly ringing said mobile phone, and will continue to do so...that is all can do for now.

The Failure To Supply information would not be down to lack of effort...if I can show that I have tried my utmost to provide the information, then can the whole court situation be avoided?!
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davepoth
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 00:19
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I'm afraid you're mistaken; the RTA states under S172 2(a) that

QUOTE
Where the driver of a vehicle is alleged to be guilty of an offence to which this section applies—

(a) the person keeping the vehicle shall give such information as to the identity of the driver as he may be required to give by or on behalf of a chief officer of police, and


You are thinking of 2 (b):

QUOTE
(b) any other person shall if required as stated above give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver.


Essentially the Keeper of the vehicle (it's you since you were keeping it at the time) has to provide the name of the driver, not just try to.

Ringing the mobile phone is not all you can do. I've suggested some steps you could take, and the CPS would probably ask why you didn't take those steps (or other similar ones) if it gets to trial. It's in your interest to try very, very hard to find out the address of the driver.


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Glacier2
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 00:19
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QUOTE (captaincharisma @ Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 00:09) *
The Failure To Supply information would not be down to lack of effort...if I can show that I have tried my utmost to provide the information, then can the whole court situation be avoided?!

Sadly not. The scammers will push the issue to court. You will have to convince the bench that you did everything in your power.
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captaincharisma
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 00:23
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But I can only provide information that I actually have. You've mentioned other methods, and I think I'll hunt down a phone book tommorow and see where it gets me.

I'll be mentioning the basics of my problem in a letter to the Safety Camera Unit as well, would be interesting to see what the response will be.
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davepoth
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 00:39
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QUOTE (captaincharisma @ Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 00:23) *
But I can only provide information that I actually have. You've mentioned other methods, and I think I'll hunt down a phone book tommorow and see where it gets me.


As I have said above, you need to find the information they want, or at least make a Herculean effort to do so, unless you want 6 points and a fine. Googling is a good step, you'd be amazed about what you might find.

QUOTE
I'll be mentioning the basics of my problem in a letter to the Safety Camera Unit as well, would be interesting to see what the response will be.


I wouldn't bother wasting the postage. They'll just send back a proforma letter reminding you of your responsibilities under S.172 2(a).


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andy_foster
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 08:39
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If the OP is unable to provide the driver's details as required by the NIP/s. 172 he will need to be able to demonstrate that he could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained them. He would also have to provide what information was in his power to give within the 28 days.

A letter to the scammers, at an early stage, providing what information he does have, asking for advice as to what further steps he could take, and theoretically giving the scammers an opportunity to try to trace the mystery driver, would be a good thing. It would also show that the defence wasn't something he thought up on the way to court.
Not providing such information within the 28 days would enable the court to ignore any reasonable diligence defence (to an s. 172 charge) without having to say that they don't believe him. This would be a bad thing.

Red light cameras take photos from behind, so it seems unlikely that the photo would show the driver, but it would still be prudent to ask. The photo might show something that refreshes your memory.

Credibility is essential in a reasonable diligence defence - an 'conveniently' (in the minds of a cynical bench) untraceable driver will always rouse suspicion. How are you so sure that it was this particular mystery driver (and not one of the other two, ir yourself)? If you were sat with this mystery driver in your car, did you notice him drive through a red light? Did you see a flash from the camera?


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Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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captaincharisma
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 12:53
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Hi again

Been a busy morning for me!

I've managed to find an address for the individual now, so I'll fill in the NIP and send that off.
Would it be advisable to send a copy of my own photo license just so they can confirm that it wasn't me driving at the time?
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nemo
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 12:57
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QUOTE (captaincharisma @ Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 12:53) *
I've managed to find an address for the individual now, so I'll fill in the NIP and send that off.

thumbsup.gif

QUOTE (captaincharisma @ Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 12:53) *
Would it be advisable to send a copy of my own photo license just so they can confirm that it wasn't me driving at the time?

No - if for no other reason than red light cameras take pictures of the rear of a vehicle, not the front.
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captaincharisma
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 13:15
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This just gets worse and worse.

I've posted the NIP and I thought I'd pay the guy a visit seeing as he isn't answering his phone.

Turns out he moved out of the property over the weekend, and hasn't left a forwarding address! I really can't believe it.

I've spoken to the landlords, who have now moved in themselves and they say they'll discuss the matter with the local Police department if and when they get the new NIP.

But wow, what do I do now?
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Glacier2
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 13:32
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QUOTE
Turns out he moved out of the property over the weekend, and hasn't left a forwarding address! I really can't believe it.

Not your problem. Let nature take its course.
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captaincharisma
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 13:33
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Hmm OK. Thanks.

I'll see what happens and update you guys in due course.

Thanks again!
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davepoth
post Mon, 9 Feb 2009 - 15:32
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Bear in mind that so long as the information was right at the time of the offence there's nothing more you can do, so you should now be fine.


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The Rookie
post Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 08:28
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Arguably this is good news, if the Police can't find him, then he can't deny being the driver, so there won't then be an 'O yes you were' 'O no I wasn't' argument!

Simon


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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