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S172 NIP "to whom it may concern"
Dr.E
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 19:54
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Hi all

Unfortunately received a nip today. However, its addressed to "whom it may concern"

My question - do I have to reply?
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post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 19:54
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Jlc
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:02
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What's the alleged offence?

What other detail does it give, such as car registration?

Are you the registered keeper?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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StuartBu
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:02
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QUOTE (Dr.E @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:54) *
Hi all

Unfortunately received a nip today. However, its addressed to "whom it may concern"

My question - do I have to reply?


Was it in a non- window envelope ..was that written on the envelope or was your name on the envelope? Does it refer to a vehicle that you are the Reg'd Keeper of.
seems odd not to have a name on
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Dr.E
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:08
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:02) *
What's the alleged offence?

What other detail does it give, such as car registration?

Are you the registered keeper?


Offence - Driving without due care and attention
Reported to police by member of public
Car registration given.

QUOTE (StuartBu @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:02) *
QUOTE (Dr.E @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:54) *
Hi all

Unfortunately received a nip today. However, its addressed to "whom it may concern"

My question - do I have to reply?


Was it in a non- window envelope ..was that written on the envelope or was your name on the envelope? Does it refer to a vehicle that you are the Reg'd Keeper of.
seems odd not to have a name on


Yes a non window envelope, with my surname only. However there are 3 people living at the address with same surname all insured to drive the car.

This post has been edited by Dr.E: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:09
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Churchmouse
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:38
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Unless you're in it for the sport of it, the one who is the registered keeper of the vehicle should reply. Was a specific time and place mentioned? It's not too early to try to work out who was driving.

--Churchmouse
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Dr.E
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:50
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:38) *
Unless you're in it for the sport of it, the one who is the registered keeper of the vehicle should reply. Was a specific time and place mentioned? It's not too early to try to work out who was driving.

--Churchmouse


No I’m not the registered keeper, but I’m insured to drive the car as are 3 other people at the address who share the surname written on the envelope.

An approximate time is given and a location
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peterguk
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:57
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QUOTE (Dr.E @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:50) *
An approximate time is given and a location


So not too difficult to work out whether you were the driver.


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Dr.E
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:10
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:57) *
QUOTE (Dr.E @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:50) *
An approximate time is given and a location


So not too difficult to work out whether you were the driver.


This isn’t about who was driving. It seems the police have written to my address directly without writing to the registered keeper (lease company) to find out lease holders name. As a result, the letter has been addressed to a surname only / whom it may concern.

This post has been edited by Dr.E: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:19
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Redivi
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:20
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Is it a Notice of Intended Prosecution or an S172 request to identify the driver ?

They're usually combined in one form

Did it arrive within 14 days of the alleged event ?

Is it definitely from the police or is a member of the public trying to be clever ?

This post has been edited by Redivi: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:20
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Dr.E
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:29
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 22:20) *
Is it a Notice of Intended Prosecution or an S172 request to identify the driver ?

They're usually combined in one form

Did it arrive within 14 days of the alleged event ?

Is it definitely from the police or is a member of the public trying to be clever ?


Hi, yes combined nip and s172. Arrived within 14 days. Has the name and pc number of officer dealing with the case. Definitely looks legit - has police station address, ext phone number and email address.

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StuartBu
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 22:15
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QUOTE (Dr.E @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 22:29) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 22:20) *
Is it a Notice of Intended Prosecution or an S172 request to identify the driver ?

They're usually combined in one form

Did it arrive within 14 days of the alleged event ?

Is it definitely from the police or is a member of the public trying to be clever ?


Hi, yes combined nip and s172. Arrived within 14 days. Has the name and pc number of officer dealing with the case. Definitely looks legit - has police station address, ext phone number and email address.

So why not call him to clarify who he sent it to
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The Rookie
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 01:28
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QUOTE (Dr.E @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 22:10) *
This isn’t about who was driving. It seems the police have written to my address directly without writing to the registered keeper (lease company) to find out lease holders name. As a result, the letter has been addressed to a surname only / whom it may concern.

It’s very unlikely it wasn’t sent to the registered keeper first (though not impossible of course).

You could have a play, the issue is they then may be minded to make your life harder once they know who the driver was, such as not offering a course/fixed penalty or they could take action when otherwise just insurance details would be swapped, so it’s a bit of a double or quits gamble.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 08:01
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What is the NIP requirement, exactly?

QUOTE
1 (1A) A notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person—
(a) by delivering it to him;
(b) by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known address; or
( c) by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or first class post addressed to him at his last known address.]

Arguably, a NIP addressed to a person by surname only is not properly "addressed to him" and, thus, not properly served on that person. That there are four possible drivers at the address with the same surname reinforces this view. After 14 days, it would be worth a call to the police asking which person they meant to serve, and asking them to re-send the NIP. Which NIP would then be late.

--Churchmouse
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The Rookie
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 08:17
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 09:01) *
Which NIP would then be late.

Assuming a NIP is required in the circumstances, and assuming this is the first NIP in a chain?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 08:21


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 08:54
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As leased, there doesn't appear to be a 'late' argument.

However, the s172 process doesn't have this time requirement. But it does appear it hasn't been served on a particular person.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Dr.E
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 08:59
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 09:01) *
What is the NIP requirement, exactly?

QUOTE
1 (1A) A notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person—
(a) by delivering it to him;
(b) by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known address; or
( c) by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or first class post addressed to him at his last known address.]

Arguably, a NIP addressed to a person by surname only is not properly "addressed to him" and, thus, not properly served on that person. That there are four possible drivers at the address with the same surname reinforces this view. After 14 days, it would be worth a call to the police asking which person they meant to serve, and asking them to re-send the NIP. Which NIP would then be late.

--Churchmouse


Thank you very much. The most useful piece of information I've received.


QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 09:54) *
As leased, there doesn't appear to be a 'late' argument.

However, the s172 process doesn't have this time requirement. But it does appear it hasn't been served on a particular person.



Surely they have to write to the registered keeper (lease company) within 14 days?
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Jlc
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 10:27
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QUOTE (Dr.E @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 09:59) *
Surely they have to write to the registered keeper (lease company) within 14 days?

They may have done already? There is also an exception to the 14 day 'rule' under s2(3) of RTOA 1988 - but we don't know enough.

But regardless, s172 requests are not time limited...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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progbloke
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 10:30
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Which they no doubt did.

You might want to contact the leasing company and ask what name they gave. Maybe the handwriting on their form was indecipherable.

Either way, I'd consider it very bad form for a supposedly professional public body to send any correspondence to TWIMC.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 10:35
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QUOTE (Dr.E @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 09:59) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 09:01) *
What is the NIP requirement, exactly?

QUOTE
1 (1A) A notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person—
(a) by delivering it to him;
(b) by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known address; or
( c) by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or first class post addressed to him at his last known address.]

Arguably, a NIP addressed to a person by surname only is not properly "addressed to him" and, thus, not properly served on that person. That there are four possible drivers at the address with the same surname reinforces this view. After 14 days, it would be worth a call to the police asking which person they meant to serve, and asking them to re-send the NIP. Which NIP would then be late.

--Churchmouse


Thank you very much. The most useful piece of information I've received.


Its usefulness will very much depend on the circumstances.


QUOTE
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 09:54) *
As leased, there doesn't appear to be a 'late' argument.

However, the s172 process doesn't have this time requirement. But it does appear it hasn't been served on a particular person.



Surely they have to write to the registered keeper (lease company) within 14 days?

Depends on whether the offence in question requires an NIP at all. If it does, then it depends on whether an exception applies. If not, then yes - have they?

If you choose not to respond to the s 172 request then someone could end up being summonsed for the s 172 offence. Quite who that someone would be is an open question at the moment. Any defence would rely on the “not addressed to me” point.

If you (or someone with your surname at your address) replies and names themselves as the driver (if that is indeed the case) and are subsequently prosecuted for an offence then the same argument can be run concerning the identity of the driver - though if they’re in the witness box they can simply be asked who was driving.

If someone replies naming someone else then that latter someone may get a s 172 request in their own (full) name and the process proceeds as normal.

There may be other permutations but those seem the most relevant. The best defence appears to be in relation to the first option, which relies on the court finding that no s 172 requirement was actually served on the defendant (and, preferably, anyone else).


--------------------
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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 10:38
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 11:35) *
Depends on whether the offence in question requires an NIP at all.

It's DWDCA (Careless), so yes.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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