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Notice of Proposed Disqualification.
VanBonkface
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 18:12
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Looking for a little help.
I came home to the notice of proposed DQ this afternoon, I was caught speeding back in May 38 in a 30, I couldn't identify the driver as it could have been me or the mrs, so a photo arrived (it was me). Fair cop, so when I got round to responding, births, deaths, new job and sent away on a training course unexpectedly all in June I noticed there was no form to say that it was actually me, so I called the ticket office and they said it had been sent to the court. The court sent a letter, I filled in the forms and forgot to send it before I went on holiday which meant it went over the 21 day limit, by 5 days. so now I receive this letter for failing to give information. My license currently has 0 points, as of June 15th this year. How likely is it that I will be banned and how should I approach this? I admitted to the first offence, just missed the window, and now missed the second one.

I must come across as so unorganised, but may/June were just manic and a sudden death on the other side of the country meant we were away for a fortnight unexpectedly arranging funerals etc.

Help!

Thanks in advance.
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post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 18:12
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VanBonkface
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 08:09
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Points were removed on the 15th June.

There was no supporting paperwork with this letter, it just stated I need to respond by 22 Oct 18. It gives me 2 options, A) let the court handle this in my absence and await the outcome. B) Tell them how being DQ'd would affect me. Then a 1 sided form to fill in to state if I wish to attend court etc.

It does seem as if there is something missing IMO.
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NewJudge
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 09:24
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QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 08:14) *
It just says I failed to give information between 3/5 and 11/7. It has no further dates on it.

Since we're in to guessing and since they say that May 3rd was the earliest date you had to provide information, the S172 offence would have been committed on 1st June. Alternatively if May 3rd was the date of the original speeding offence you can add (about) a week to that for the date of service of the S172 notice, making the S172 offence committed (about) the 8th of June. Neither of those bode well for the 15th June when your points expired.

You really need a copy of the original NIP/S172 notice.
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VanBonkface
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 09:52
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 10:24) *
QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 08:14) *
It just says I failed to give information between 3/5 and 11/7. It has no further dates on it.

Since we're in to guessing and since they say that May 3rd was the earliest date you had to provide information, the S172 offence would have been committed on 1st June. Alternatively if May 3rd was the date of the original speeding offence you can add (about) a week to that for the date of service of the S172 notice, making the S172 offence committed (about) the 8th of June. Neither of those bode well for the 15th June when your points expired.

You really need a copy of the original NIP/S172 notice.


Thank you. In this instance then, would it be wise to seek legal representation? Given that I will have to enter a hardship plea and also how likely is it that will get a reduced ban or fine due to the fact I am the only working person in the household as my partner looks after our children and without a car I could not carry out my job which would mean we lost the house, pay for my daughters school etc? There is also the point that I would not be able to see my daughter to my ex as I have her every other weekend and drop her off (30 mile away) on a Sunday evening, it would not be possible for me to take her home using public transport on a Sunday evening. Is this something worth including ?
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samthecat
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 10:05
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Question - What are the OP's chances of getting the prosecution to accept a guilty plea to the original speeding offence? I can see they haven't been dual charged so not as straightforward as some cases but may be worth considering, no?


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If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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VanBonkface
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 10:52
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QUOTE (samthecat @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:05) *
Question - What are the OP's chances of getting the prosecution to accept a guilty plea to the original speeding offence? I can see they haven't been dual charged so not as straightforward as some cases but may be worth considering, no?


This is one thing that I hoped, I had pleaded guilty, albeit late.

But to add, on the letter where it states the case it starts with a 2) as if there was an item 1) but it has not been listed.
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NewJudge
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:32
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QUOTE (samthecat @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:05) *
Question - What are the OP's chances of getting the prosecution to accept a guilty plea to the original speeding offence? I can see they haven't been dual charged so not as straightforward as some cases but may be worth considering, no?

I think that ship may have sailed. He has already been convicted in his absence and he would have to have that conviction set aside by doing a Statutory Declaration that he knew nothing of the proceedings. But he clearly did:
QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 19:12) *
The court sent a letter, I filled in the forms and forgot to send it before I went on holiday which meant it went over the 21 day limit, by 5 days. so now I receive this letter for failing to give information.

He may be able to persuade the court to reopen the case "in the interests of justice" but it would be more in the interests of negligence and I cannot see it happening. Others might have alternative views to my somewhat simplistic one, however.



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The Rookie
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:55
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QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:52) *
QUOTE (samthecat @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:05) *
Question - What are the OP's chances of getting the prosecution to accept a guilty plea to the original speeding offence? I can see they haven't been dual charged so not as straightforward as some cases but may be worth considering, no?


This is one thing that I hoped, I had pleaded guilty, albeit late.

But to add, on the letter where it states the case it starts with a 2) as if there was an item 1) but it has not been listed.

He appears to have already plead guilty to the S172.

What you plead guilty to probably had the relevant information on dates, do you still have all that?


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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VanBonkface
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 12:12
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 12:55) *
QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:52) *
QUOTE (samthecat @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:05) *
Question - What are the OP's chances of getting the prosecution to accept a guilty plea to the original speeding offence? I can see they haven't been dual charged so not as straightforward as some cases but may be worth considering, no?


This is one thing that I hoped, I had pleaded guilty, albeit late.

But to add, on the letter where it states the case it starts with a 2) as if there was an item 1) but it has not been listed.

He appears to have already plead guilty to the S172.

What you plead guilty to probably had the relevant information on dates, do you still have all that?


No that was returned to the court, but 5 days late.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 12:55
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So you didn’t keep any of it?

You’re going to have to start chasing around to find out the actual offence date, after all it may remove the totting issue completely.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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VanBonkface
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:11
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 13:55) *
So you didn’t keep any of it?

You’re going to have to start chasing around to find out the actual offence date, after all it may remove the totting issue completely.


No, it was all sent back, which is what they requested, the letter stating the fail to produce was actually dated around the 5th Aug as I had 21 days to respond and that was due back 27th Aug which they would consider any mitigating circumstances. This is the first piece of written correspondence I received that mentioned a Fail to produce.
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NewJudge
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:32
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QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:11) *
..the letter stating the fail to produce was actually dated around the 5th Aug as I had 21 days to respond and that was due back 27th Aug which they would consider any mitigating circumstances. This is the first piece of written correspondence I received that mentioned a Fail to produce.

These dates are of no help. Until you establish the date they allege the S172 (Fail to Provide driver's details) offence was committed there is not much anybody here can do to help. That date will determine whether you fall foul of the "totting up" rules or not.
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VanBonkface
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:51
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:32) *
QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:11) *
..the letter stating the fail to produce was actually dated around the 5th Aug as I had 21 days to respond and that was due back 27th Aug which they would consider any mitigating circumstances. This is the first piece of written correspondence I received that mentioned a Fail to produce.

These dates are of no help. Until you establish the date they allege the S172 (Fail to Provide driver's details) offence was committed there is not much anybody here can do to help. That date will determine whether you fall foul of the "totting up" rules or not.


Ok thank you, would it be the Central ticket office I contact for this or the Magistrates court? I have an email address to respond to postbox@justice.gov for my hardship plea, but I am not sure if this is somewhere I can ask questions.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:59
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Try them both, the Police are probably not going to be helpful but the courts have a duty to, although you may have to be persistent.. No time to put your head in the sand either.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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cp8759
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:22
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QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:51) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:32) *
QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:11) *
..the letter stating the fail to produce was actually dated around the 5th Aug as I had 21 days to respond and that was due back 27th Aug which they would consider any mitigating circumstances. This is the first piece of written correspondence I received that mentioned a Fail to produce.

These dates are of no help. Until you establish the date they allege the S172 (Fail to Provide driver's details) offence was committed there is not much anybody here can do to help. That date will determine whether you fall foul of the "totting up" rules or not.


Ok thank you, would it be the Central ticket office I contact for this or the Magistrates court? I have an email address to respond to postbox@justice.gov for my hardship plea, but I am not sure if this is somewhere I can ask questions.

justice.gov is the US Department of Justice, I'm not sure they can help.


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VanBonkface
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:35
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:22) *
QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:51) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:32) *
QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:11) *
..the letter stating the fail to produce was actually dated around the 5th Aug as I had 21 days to respond and that was due back 27th Aug which they would consider any mitigating circumstances. This is the first piece of written correspondence I received that mentioned a Fail to produce.

These dates are of no help. Until you establish the date they allege the S172 (Fail to Provide driver's details) offence was committed there is not much anybody here can do to help. That date will determine whether you fall foul of the "totting up" rules or not.


Ok thank you, would it be the Central ticket office I contact for this or the Magistrates court? I have an email address to respond to postbox@justice.gov for my hardship plea, but I am not sure if this is somewhere I can ask questions.

justice.gov is the US Department of Justice, I'm not sure they can help.


missed the .uk off the end. I will give the court a call tomorrow and see who I can get the information from.

If the date is after the June 15th so there was0 points? how do I go about making this point, will I have to wait for the hearing or can I do it in advance so as not to waste anyones time?
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NewJudge
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 19:31
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QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 19:35) *
If the date is after the June 15th so there was0 points? how do I go about making this point, will I have to wait for the hearing or can I do it in advance so as not to waste anyones time?

You will have to wait for your hearing as you have still to be sentence for the offence (even though you may not be a "totter"). All the court has done so far is adjourned the matter to give you the opportunity to attend.
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VanBonkface
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:07
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Ok thank you, I called the court today to ask for the information. As you say the court has adjourned the hearing until late October. The court over the phone were unable to give me the date and all they said that between May and July the information was requested. Anyway, I have had to email them to request the information, currently awaiting a response.

How long should I give the court to respond, I don't want to pester but would rather put my plea forward early rather than last minute. I also thought I would receive a confirmation of receipt from the email address, but nothing as yet.
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VanBonkface
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 12:44
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I have a bit of an update now from the court.

As above the police were trying to get information between May and July 11th. This is laid out in their witness statement which says I responded on the 11th June and photographic evidence was sent 11th June, but in this envelope there was no way of identifying the driver due to not having a form included. I assume there should have been one, and called the central ticket office about this also. Am I right in thinking that I had responded and tried to comply by responding to the first NIP so the date of the fail to provide charge could not have been before the 11th June? Or is that just wishful thinking? The SJP is dated 06 August, and this is the first time a Fail to Provide charge is mentioned in any documentation and just references between may and July 11th.

The court have said this is all the information they have so can help no further.

I'm a bit lost now.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 12:56
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QUOTE (VanBonkface @ Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 13:44) *
Or is that just wishful thinking?

Very much.

The requirement is not to 'respond' (in some random undefined manner) but to name the driver.

that 11th June date suggests the 03/05 was the date the S172 was generated or presumed served, either way that puts the 28 days before your previous points would no longer be counted, I think you need to focus on your EH plea..


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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NewJudge
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 14:03
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^^^Agreed.

You said in your first post "...when I got round to responding" and in your last "This is laid out in their witness statement which says I responded on the 11th June..." How exactly did you respond? Did you ever unequivocally name a driver?

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 14:04
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