PCN NRC. Ticket and camera timer ?, 2 timers for same event. Options

[Oddfellow]

Hi. another visit for me to this great Forum.
I have studied the forum over the years so have an idea of the process to follow, but initially, basic advice is sort.

My wife received PCN from ParkingEye. The car park is behind shops and has about 50 spaces.
The carpark was entered , vehicle parked and went to buy a ticket. A diagram behind the ticket machine shows that only 10 allocated spaces are for visitors Pay and Display.
Went back and moved the car. Entered Reg in ticket machine and printed an hours ticket. Did shopping, returned and left carpark. Did not notice it had NRC.

PCN has photos of car arriving and leaving 10 minutes over the hour (as per camera times).
My question - I cant believe this is legal in any way. There can't be 2 timers running at different start times. There would be no way to use the full paid for hour if the clock started on entry via the NRC ?
As it happens, the car was moved out of the space (approaching the hours end) and positioned near the back door of the shop for loading. (The other 50 spaces are allocated to the shops).
I cant image this would stand up to any legal process.
Advice really very much appreciated.

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[ostell]

What they are measuring is the time in car park, which is not necessarily the period of parking. There is also a requirement in the Code of Practise for the BPA, to which PE belong, to allow a a grace period of 10 minutes at the end of parking. There should also be a time at the beginning to read the conditions and either accept or reject.

Can the shop not tell PE to cancel the charge, or provide a contact to the people that have the contact with PE.

P.S. what's NRC ?

[Oddfellow]

Many thanks for quick reply.
NRC sorry - Number plate recognition.

The plot thickens. I went to the car park today and the whole thing very confusing. Will post some pics.
The info boards displayed have mixed messages. One sign says Pay and Display. The ticket machine says purchase ticket ' before exiting', and is receipt only' No need to display'. How does one know what to pay, if you have to pay ' At anytime before exiting the car park' ? Only a very small note on the tariffs board saying ANPR monitored.

I guess the way it works - The camera knows how long you have been on the premises and the customer has to work out the fee ? How do PEye know if I was occupying a visitor space for the whole of the visit ? Some of the time was loading at shop rear entrance. All seems flimsy.

Pretty sure the whole thing is designed to generate money. Pay and Display to most people means - buy a ticket to cover the period of stay, and put it on the dashboard.
I hate to think how many people have been caught out !
Is this confusion, and strange parking arrangement, sufficient defense against PCN.
Many thanks

PS, I agree about the alleged 10 min grace issue. I actually have the ticket that shows was purchased 2 mins after arrival. Which brings my total alleged stay, down to 1 hr 8 mins.
£100 seems unfair... but I know unfair doesnt come into it.

[ostell]

Yes, you can appeal using the fact that your overstay was within the CoP minimum grace period. The court of appeal ruled that although the CoP was not law it was considered mandatory for the PPCs to follow it. Did the signs say that time starts when the car enters the car park?

If the signs are confusing and contradictory then yes this is an appeal point.

Styill best to get the landholder to get PE to cancel.

Sorry for the confusion over NRC, see your using ANPR now.

[Jlc]

Their signs might well offer a contract where the tariff paid actually includes time already used since passing the ANPR camera at the perimeter. After all, that contract could be rejected and the driver should leave if they don’t like it. (Grace period at the end aside)

I think it’s unfair but they do operate under sharp practices imho.

[s360]

Also, if confusing conditions exist on signage then the most favourable one for the consumer MUST prevail. Although the lack of adequate grace periods should be a winning point.

[Redivi]

I don't know the eventual outcome of the case but I've seen a ParkingEye reply to a defence saying that the parking ticket expired an hour after entry, not at the time printed on it

[SchoolRunMum]

Was the PCN received within 14 days, and does it have the POFA wording on it on the back? Just checking it's not a 'Golden Ticket'.

[Oddfellow]

Thank you everybody ,for the really useful advice and guidance. I think it will be best for me to add some photos to the post.
* PCN arrived within 14 days and does have POFA wording. Slightly confused... Is this PCN, The Notice to Keeper ?
* Landlord of the shop we visited that day is not in the Parking scheme.

* I do not intend disclosing driver information. I will to follow the templates on here for defense / appeal.
Thanks again

[nosferatu1001]

If it was addressed to the keeper, of course it is the notice to keeper. They cannot know the name of the driver (think about it!) nor an address for them. the only address they have is the DVLA address of the RK

[Oddfellow]

Thanks all for update.
It seems that the Pay and Display sign is old. The machine says pay sometime before exit...no need to disply ?? The signage has a small comment at the bottom saying ANRP monitored, Shouldn't it say ' Controlled. It is very confusing, but I would have thought Pay and Display, to most poeple means - buy ticket and leave the space before it expires. Legally seems wrong. Image trying to work this out on a rainy day with kids in tow ??

[nosferatu1001]

If it says P&D, then you are entitled to treat the start and end of the contract as when the ticket is bought and when it expires.

[Redivi]

Yes

ParkingEye's position contradicts the well-established Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking and the British Parking Association's Legislation Guide for Operators that pre-dated its Code of Practice and isn't always easily found

If the time printed on the ticket isn't the expiry time and only misleads the motorist, what is the point of printing it at all instead of simply stating the amount of time that's been paid for ?

ParkingEye could easily make clear on their signs and the receipt that "parking" commenced at an earlier time and the motorist should take account of this

They would struggle with the Consumer Rights Act 2015 S.69 that says that, if a term can have more than one meaning, the one most favourable to the consumer must prevail

[Oddfellow]

[attachment=53686:Screensh...40x1024_.jpg][attachment=53687:edit2.jpg

I have posted some pics of original PCN.

I intend to cut and paste one of the lengthy responses from this site, but highlight the confusing signage. also the fact that out of 70 parking spaces, only 9 are for visitors. This is only displayed when one gets to the ticket machine.
Example of entrapment - 1st time using this car park. Driver arrives at car park. sees pay and display sign. parks car. Walks to machine. Sees only allowed to park in 9 allocated spaces. walks back to move car. hopes a spaces is free.. maybe waits. Gets space, buys 1 hour ticket. Driver completely unaware the clock started ticking on entry due to cameras ( only mention, is tiny note on tariff board ' ANPR monitored ' .. shouldn't this say Controlled or Operated ?
Signage is completely unsuitable, and I would say, with only 9 spaces generating income, Private Eye are working the Public.

I took some pictures of the ticket machine, and the time on the machine is 2 mins different to my phone cameras. I'm assuming phone time must be accurate due to Satcom or Phone network ?? any mileage in perusing this line of defense as well ?
See attached photos.
Many thanks

[attachment=53686:Screensh...40x1024_.jpg]
[attachment=53687:edit2.jpg]


JUST TO CLARIFY.. There is a large , aprox 20'' x 15'', Pay and Display sign on the way in .
Thanks

This post has been edited by Oddfellow: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:49

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[freddy1]

Hi. another visit for me to this great Forum.
I have studied the forum over the years so have an idea of the process to follow, but initially, basic advice is sort.

My wife received PCN from ParkingEye. The car park is behind shops and has about 50 spaces.
The carpark was entered , vehicle parked and went to buy a ticket. A diagram behind the ticket machine shows that only 10 allocated spaces are for visitors Pay and Display.
Went back and moved the car. Entered Reg in ticket machine and printed an hours ticket. Did shopping, returned and left carpark. Did not notice it had NRC.

PCN has photos of car arriving and leaving 10 minutes over the hour (as per camera times).
My question - I cant believe this is legal in any way. There can't be 2 timers running at different start times. There would be no way to use the full paid for hour if the clock started on entry via the NRC ?
As it happens, the car was moved out of the space (approaching the hours end) and positioned near the back door of the shop for loading. (The other 50 spaces are allocated to the shops).
I cant image this would stand up to any legal process.
Advice really very much appreciated.

very possible that PE are not in charge of the other 40 spaces , therefore your entry / exit should be based on the land that they manage , not the whole site

further checks are needed as to who owns/manages the other 40 places