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[NIP Wizard] Fail to comply with Intermittent Red Light
Meso
post Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 13:38
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2010
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M60 Anti-clockwise 9270B
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question, however, my wife was driving the car as she does on a daily basis. This query is for my wife really. My wife already has 9 points, another 3 pending (still needs to return the form) and now this NIP has just come through to me for another 3 points which will take her to 15!

My first question is - where the hell is M60 Anti-clockwise 9270B? My wife does not know where this road is.

My second question is if we can't dispute this NIP will she lose her license for having 15 points?

She is an Estate Agent and needs her car for work. If she loses her license she will lose her job, the car on HP will get repossessed which will fall to me as guarantor, I cannot afford to pay this and inevitably we will lose our house. This really will have a catastrophic impact on our lives.

I really hope someone can give me some sound advice.

Thank you


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
Were you driving? - No
Do you know who was driving? - Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Complete the Section 172 statement naming the person you believe was driving.
    You aren't incriminating them - they'll receive a NIP to complete themselves in due course.

    (You might also like to let that person know that they can expect to receive one, and give them the link to this Wizard for when it arrives!)

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 13:38:18 +0000
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post Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 13:38
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uk_mike
post Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 14:05
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QUOTE (Meso @ Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 14:38) *
My first question is - where the hell is M60 Anti-clockwise 9270B? My wife does not know where this road is.


9270B will either be gantry ID or the number on the nearest driver location sign. The allegation will be that on the M60 while travelling on the anti-clockwise direction she drove in a lane above which the gantry signal was showing flashing red lights and a red X.

QUOTE
My second question is if we can't dispute this NIP will she lose her license for having 15 points?


When she hits 12 points she will get a ban unless she can win an exceptional hardship case. That would "reset" the points so this one will not get an additional totting up ban. But I fear the court may take a dim view of someone who continues to commit driving offences when already facing a totting up ban.


QUOTE
She is an Estate Agent and needs her car for work. If she loses her license she will lose her job, the car on HP will get repossessed which will fall to me as guarantor, I cannot afford to pay this and inevitably we will lose our house. This really will have a catastrophic impact on our lives.


A ban can be avoided with a successful exceptional hardship plea. Generally the hardship needs to for someone else, as the purpose of the ban is to cause her hardship. The fact that by your description it would cause you sever hardship will be in her favour. Are there also any children in the mix? When she makes her plea she needs to give details of how the ban will cause you and your family hardship and explain why she will not be able to take steps to reduce that hardship.

My slight worry is that you can usually only win an exception hardship once (when she hits 12) in a 3 year period. When this charge brings her to 15 a ban would normally be unavoidable. The only thing I am not sure is if the court would take the fact that this offence occurred before any exceptional hardship pleas is made, and if that will help. Hopefully one of the other members will know and be able to advice.

My main concern is the rate at which she seems to be getting caught at the moment - that will not look good in court!
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peterguk
post Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 14:35
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IMHO, she's going to be very, very lucky to avoid a ban. Two offences pending, and only one opportunity for an exceptional hardship plea...

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 14:37


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southpaw82
post Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 14:37
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 15:35) *
I can't see how she is going to avoid a ban. Two offences pending, and only one opportunity for an exceptional hardship plea...


Using the same reasons. It is (theoretically) possible to argue exceptional hardship indefinitely. What you can't do is argue the same reasons more than once in any three year period.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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peterguk
post Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 14:41
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 15:37) *
Using the same reasons. It is (theoretically) possible to argue exceptional hardship indefinitely. What you can't do is argue the same reasons more than once in any three year period.


Thanks SP


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Logician
post Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 18:06
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She needs to get the two offences heard at the same court, if necessary by getting one court to remit the matter to another if they are in different areas. It is going to be difficult to win an exceptional hardship argument, the purpose of the points system is to get people to modify their driving behaviour, which it seems she has singularly failed to do, despite her licence being so important to her. As well as working on the exceptional hardship submission, you need to think if there is anyway she could continue working without driving, could colleagues/friends/family take her around, can she work in the office, perhaps offer to take a pay cut while she is office bound, that sort of thing. But do not commit to any definite arrangement because she may be questioned about alternatives in court.


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glasgow_bhoy
post Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 22:42
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Before you get tooooo panicy, are the points all within the last 3 years?
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Meso
post Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 14:02
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uk_mike - thank you for your detailed response and for clearing up the location of the offence. There are no dependant children at home.

Can I ask how a ban works? Does she just send her license off to the DVLA or does she get summoned to court? Do we have to request a court hearing? I am just worried that when she sends the NIP back then that's it and she doesn't have chance to make her plea.

Also at the court hearing, would Greater Manchester Police be there or would it just be the Judge and her?

Logician - she has spoken to her boss at work and has been advised that they would have to let her go if she was banned. Her job entails being on the road and in the office, she has several appointments a day covering a large area of the North West. This is why friends and family would be unable to help out.

Thanks all for help so far


QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 7 Aug 2010 - 23:42) *
Before you get tooooo panicy, are the points all within the last 3 years?


I think they have all been in the last 3 years unfortunately, she will check tonight and I will let you know
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iwt
post Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 14:35
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Hi.
My understanding is that one has to be summoned to appear in court to be banned. One must surrender ones licence to the court. I seem to recall that for shorter bans (under 56 days), the court returns ones licence, with a note of when one can resume driving. For longer bans, the court returns the licence to DVLA, and towards the end of the ban period, DVLA send one a form inviting one to apply for ones driving licence back.
The NIP stage says nothing about guilt or otherwise.
Once the NIP/S172 is returned, they'll respond with other paperwork, likely a "you must attend" summons. As disqualification is probable, a Conditional offer of Fixed Penalty/invitation to a driver improvement course/etc seems somewhat unlikely.
First hearing should be the plea hearing; it's at this stage where she can enter her guilty plea, and make her case for leniency. She may want to have something in writing from her employer to the effect of what she was told.
There should be an usher who will show you were to go, a representative from the CPS (the prosecutor), the Clerk to the Court, and the bench (a District Judge, or 2/3 Magistrates). Would not expect the police or any witnesses at a plea hearing. That happens further down the process if one enters a not guilty plea.
If she is banned, she will not be permitted to drive from the court (driving while disqualified has custodial sentences), so should not drive there!
HTH.
--
Regards, SlidDownAHill.
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redloner
post Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 15:10
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I don't see her getting away without a ban from one of these two offences. As SP said, you can't give the same exceptional hardship argument twice.

So, needs must. By ignoring the new NIP, you will probably end up being summonsed as the RK in a "failure to furnish driver details" charge. Penalty 6 points and fine, costs etc of around £400. Hopefully you have less than six points at present.

She still faces the earlier case, has to go to Court and hope to make an exceptional hardship plea stick to hold on to her licence. If she fails, your gesture would be completely wasted.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 17:26
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QUOTE (redloner @ Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 16:10) *
So, needs must. By ignoring the new NIP, you will probably end up being summonsed as the RK in a "failure to furnish driver details" charge. Penalty 6 points and fine, costs etc of around £400. Hopefully you have less than six points at present.


Do not incite anyone to commit a criminal offence.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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redloner
post Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 19:45
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Sorry, SP. I thought very carefully before I posted this and if you think it best removed then so be it.
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