PCN and Bailiffs at wrong address |
PCN and Bailiffs at wrong address |
Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 08:25
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 12 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,837 |
Hi everyone, need a bit of help just to make sure I've got everything right.
We recently moved address since last year July, and on 29th June this year we got a bailiff at our door demanding £438. We didn't really know what was going on, all that they told us is that it is a PCN for parking, we called up Camden council and sure enough my gf had parked in the wrong place. Since we just submitted our Naturalization forms for British citizenship we didn't want any trouble so we paid and thought the matter was solved. Then on 5th July bailiff once again came in and this demanded £558 for another PCN, this time for a congestion charge, again we paid since they already clamped the car but we also checked if we had any other outstanding PCNs and there one more listed on the TFL website for congestion charge, which was now up to £200 something. Now the car is registered under my gf and she had her driver's license and all other documents changed as soon as she moved in to the new address in July 2017 EXCEPT the V5C since she frankly didn't know how important that was, I changed it for her and we got a new one with the right address on 27th of March this year. The problem is that all of these PCNs were first filed in either mid January or early February this year, however we have not received a single letter to the new address, even after I looked online and saw how the charges moved up in stages, and every single one of them moved up in stages already after 27th of march, when we had received our new updated V5C. The only reason we know they even exist is because the bailiffs found us. I contacted TFL to explain the situation to them and was told that DVLA had never updated them on the change of address. Surely they should have been sending the increased charges warning letters to our new address on the V5C. They advised me to contact TEC, which I did and yet again even they had my gf's old address. The form we were recommended and sent were PE2 and PE3 for the congestion charge, and TE7 and TE9 for the parking. We don't mind paying the original PCN but its a bit unfair that even after we changed the address they kept sending the increased charges to old one and no one bothered to update them even after months, and we only found out each time with the bailiffs, so we have to pay those guys too. Are the form we have been sent the right ones for this? How would we go about even getting a refund from the bailiffs now... This post has been edited by evemaila: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 08:29 |
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Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 08:25
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Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 08:43
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
You are finding out the hard way the penalty for not updating the V5C, which by the way is a legal requirement.
Once the lookup is done that's the address that is used - there is no requirement for an authority to check DVLA again and DVLA cannot send address updates to authorities. There is a process as you have found for resetting things though. You'd better post the exact dates of what's happened. This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 08:43 |
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Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 08:55
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#3
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 12 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,837 |
You are finding out the hard way the penalty for not updating the V5C, which by the way is a legal requirement. Once the lookup is done that's the address that is used - there is no requirement for an authority to check DVLA again and DVLA cannot send address updates to authorities. There is a process as you have found for resetting things though. You'd better post the exact dates of what's happened. Seems like it but I at least don't want to pay the bailiffs. These would be the exact dates, For the current congestion charge PCN 19/02/2018 14:00:50 PCN Batched 13/04/2018 04:30:27 Charge Certificate Batched 24/05/2018 14:27:09 Debt Registration Accepted 24/05/2018 16:30:06 Notice of Debt Registration Issued Currently at £248.00 Paid congestion charge PCN 12/01/2018 14:06:29 PCN Batched 07/03/2018 04:33:31 Charge Certificate Batched 19/04/2018 14:01:16 Debt Registration Accepted 19/04/2018 16:30:14 Notice of Debt Registration Issued 08/06/2018 13:51:46 Warrant Request Accepted 08/06/2018 16:20:16 Exported to Enforcement Agent(Marston Group Ltd) and on the 06/07/2018 made payment £558.00 to bailiffs For the parking PCN, I can't view anything about it since it's expired? All I know is that it was issued on 08/01/2018 and paid to bailiffs on 29/06/2018 |
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Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 11:23
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
The form we were recommended and sent were PE2 and PE3 for the congestion charge, and TE7 and TE9 for the parking. These have to be completed very carefully and focus on the right things. I'm normally one of those that helps but I have zero time available this week. You should file the forms for the latest one asap because it seems a warrant has not yet been issued and, in terms of being 'outside the normally permitted time', you are only a couple of weeks late. There are numerous previous cases on the forum as examples but remember they are case and circumstance specific. Read up, ask questions and someone here might help. -- For the other two, no rush and no time limit. You need to get the details of the parking one. -------------------- |
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Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 19:45
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#5
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 12 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,837 |
The form we were recommended and sent were PE2 and PE3 for the congestion charge, and TE7 and TE9 for the parking. These have to be completed very carefully and focus on the right things. I'm normally one of those that helps but I have zero time available this week. You should file the forms for the latest one asap because it seems a warrant has not yet been issued and, in terms of being 'outside the normally permitted time', you are only a couple of weeks late. There are numerous previous cases on the forum as examples but remember they are case and circumstance specific. Read up, ask questions and someone here might help. -- For the other two, no rush and no time limit. You need to get the details of the parking one. Ok I understand, we are getting the forms for the latest one witnessed tomorrow and will email them to TEC before 4pm. As for the other two, is there any possible chance of us getting the money back from the bailiffs? |
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Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 20:59
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21,014 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
QUOTE As for the other two, is there any possible chance of us getting the money back from the bailiffs? Almost nil, I'd say. UK civil law can be very harsh, as you have found out. I'd say it's more harsh than the criminal law. People have committed suicide on being told they owe hundreds of pounds they haven't a clue about. |
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Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 21:14
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
QUOTE As for the other two, is there any possible chance of us getting the money back from the bailiffs? Almost nil, I'd say. UK civil law can be very harsh, as you have found out. I'd say it's more harsh than the criminal law. People have committed suicide on being told they owe hundreds of pounds they haven't a clue about. Not really though, if you owe a criminal fine they'll take your door off its hinges with a big read key and take you to court in cuffs, and even if you go bankrupt that won't write them off. You also can't go to prison for owing a lawfully incurred civil debt. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 23:22
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
QUOTE As for the other two, is there any possible chance of us getting the money back from the bailiffs? Almost nil, I'd say. UK civil law can be very harsh, as you have found out. I'd say it's more harsh than the criminal law. People have committed suicide on being told they owe hundreds of pounds they haven't a clue about. Not really though, if you owe a criminal fine they'll take your door off its hinges with a big read key and take you to court in cuffs, and even if you go bankrupt that won't write them off. You also can't go to prison for owing a lawfully incurred civil debt. And the Local Authority Ombudsman has also disagreed ! The target for refunds would primarily be the Council anyway and, since filing an OOT is free, why not try? Ok I understand, we are getting the forms for the latest one witnessed tomorrow and will email them to TEC before 4pm. Erm, I did think you might ask questions on content or show your draft here first. -------------------- |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 00:24
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#9
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 12 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,837 |
QUOTE As for the other two, is there any possible chance of us getting the money back from the bailiffs? Almost nil, I'd say. UK civil law can be very harsh, as you have found out. I'd say it's more harsh than the criminal law. People have committed suicide on being told they owe hundreds of pounds they haven't a clue about. Not really though, if you owe a criminal fine they'll take your door off its hinges with a big read key and take you to court in cuffs, and even if you go bankrupt that won't write them off. You also can't go to prison for owing a lawfully incurred civil debt. And the Local Authority Ombudsman has also disagreed ! The target for refunds would primarily be the Council anyway and, since filing an OOT is free, why not try? Ok I understand, we are getting the forms for the latest one witnessed tomorrow and will email them to TEC before 4pm. Erm, I did think you might ask questions on content or show your draft here first. For PE3 we ticked the first box with the 'I did not receive...'. For the Reasons we put the following: I did not receive the postal penalty charge notice. The penalty charge notice was sent to my old address. I have been in my new address since 25/07/2018, I received the updated V5C with the new correct address on the 27/03/2018. The Penalty charge notice was issued on 19/02/2018 and all correspondence since has been going to my old address, which is why I did not know about this penalty charge notice until I was visited by the bailiff on 06/07/2018 for another Penalty charge notice which also had all correspondence sent to the old address. I looked around on the forum and that seemed like the best response to go with? Although it seemed there was sometimes suggestions to omit the dates, but I didn't think that would have made sense in our case. As for PE4: I was unable to complete this Statutory Declaration within the given time as it was not until I received a bailiff visit for another penalty charge notice that I was made aware of this penalty charge notice. I'm completely confused on how to do the other two already bailiff paid ones however, I really would want to get the money back from the bailiffs. Also, what's the chance that DVLA will give us the £1000 fine for not updating the V5C in time? If that were to happen I think it would be better to just pay up the current £248.00 PCN. |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 02:32
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,816 Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Member No.: 24,962 |
Your chances of a refund from Bailiff is 'slim'.
What is the 'docref date' on the new V5c? Another reason why people should obtain min 3 month mail redirection when moving property. |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 08:07
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#11
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 12 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,837 |
Your chances of a refund from Bailiff is 'slim'. What is the 'docref date' on the new V5c? Another reason why people should obtain min 3 month mail redirection when moving property. It's 27/03/2018. Would it be a good idea to send a copy of this with the PE2 and PE3 forms, as well as maybe a council tax bill? |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 09:49
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Your chances of a refund from Bailiff is 'slim'. What is the 'docref date' on the new V5c? Another reason why people should obtain min 3 month mail redirection when moving property. It's 27/03/2018. Would it be a good idea to send a copy of this with the PE2 and PE3 forms, as well as maybe a council tax bill? The detail should have been on PE2 not 3 and as much of your statement supported by evidence as possible. The fact that DVLA updated your address before a Charge Certificate was issued and well before the debt was registered should have been highlighted. As should the PCN being very close to when you sent your update to DVLA (probably). Also, what's the chance that DVLA will give us the £1000 fine for not updating the V5C in time? We can't say it won't happen but I don't recall us ever hearing of it here. -------------------- |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 19:31
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#13
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 12 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,837 |
Your chances of a refund from Bailiff is 'slim'. What is the 'docref date' on the new V5c? Another reason why people should obtain min 3 month mail redirection when moving property. It's 27/03/2018. Would it be a good idea to send a copy of this with the PE2 and PE3 forms, as well as maybe a council tax bill? The detail should have been on PE2 not 3 and as much of your statement supported by evidence as possible. The fact that DVLA updated your address before a Charge Certificate was issued and well before the debt was registered should have been highlighted. As should the PCN being very close to when you sent your update to DVLA (probably). Also, what's the chance that DVLA will give us the £1000 fine for not updating the V5C in time? We can't say it won't happen but I don't recall us ever hearing of it here. Hi thanks for your reply, I held off sending it today. I changed it to this and put it on the section in the PE2 rather than PE3. I did not receive the postal penalty charge notice. The penalty charge notice was sent to my old address. I have been in my new address since 25th of July 2018. The Penalty charge notice was issued on 19th of January 2018 which is close to the date that I sent my V5C to DVLA to update the address. The DVLA had updated my address before the Charge Certificate was issued on 13th of April 2018, as I had received my new V5C with the correct address on the 27th of March 2018. All the correspondence has been going to my old address, and I was not made aware of this Penalty Charge Notice until I was visited by the bailiff on 06th of July /2018 for another Penalty charge notice which also had all correspondence sent to the old address. I am going to include a scan of the V5C with the new address and also date reference on it, as well as a council tax bill from last year for this property and maybe a picture of the status of the PCN on the tfl website? I do not have anything else other than the bailiff letter given on the 06th of July when I was first made aware of these charges, and for some reason the first time the guy legged it after leaving the letter where as the second time they actually put the thing around the car wheel and came to our door in person (but this was for the other PCNs which we have already paid to the bailiff). Would it be a good idea to include this too? Again sorry for all the questions but what exactly should I put on the PE3 form in this case? |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 21:19
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
I have been in my new address since 25th of July 2018. Sure about that? -------------------- |
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Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 21:31
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#15
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 12 Jul 2018 Member No.: 98,837 |
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Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 17:00
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Also, what's the chance that DVLA will give us the £1000 fine for not updating the V5C in time? If that were to happen I think it would be better to just pay up the current £248.00 PCN. The DVLA cannot fine you £1,000, only a magistrates' court could do so. I've seen it happen, but only in cases where there was deliberate criminality, I.e. someone registered at a made up address on purpose thinking he could drive around with no tax, no insurance and speed through all the speed cameras with impunity. I think he got a few hindered quid fine, but he was the sort of chap who had a fines account with the court already so they just added it to his tab. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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