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PCN Recieved - Can i appeal and win?
sunnyb18759
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 19:54
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I received a PCN on the 4th Jan, it arrived in the post 9th Jan instructing I have 14 days from the date issue to pay £65, or £100 after.

In 2013, someone on this site helped me appeal and win a case with a template letter.

I was hoping if someone could help me with this one. I have attached the PCN.

I also still have that template letters someone gave me which I mention earlier 5 years ago.

Are the laws relating to parking on private property still the same? Can I still do something similar now and win an appeal?

I have a about 4 days before the 14 day period and I may have to pay £100 as oppose to £65

Can anyone help?

This post has been edited by sunnyb18759: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:11
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post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 19:54
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Redx
post Thu, 18 Aug 2022 - 14:08
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OK, see what comes back from UK cpm !

As for the email issues here, I hope that you are not using Hotmail or outlook ? Use a Gmail or yahoo mail account, or something similar, not Microsoft

This post has been edited by Redx: Thu, 18 Aug 2022 - 14:08
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sunnyb218759
post Mon, 22 Aug 2022 - 06:33
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QUOTE (Redx @ Thu, 18 Aug 2022 - 15:08) *
OK, see what comes back from UK cpm !

As for the email issues here, I hope that you are not using Hotmail or outlook? Use a Gmail or yahoo mail account, or something similar, not Microsoft


Hi - Thanks Redx, yes I used an outlook.com address. But now I have used it the account is stuck, because no verification emails are coming through for it to be verified, and whilst in this state, I can not revert to the Gmail address. Who can help with this in this forum? I've been emailing the admins and moderators but have not received replies since last week.
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Redx
post Mon, 22 Aug 2022 - 07:44
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Report the post or thread and state what you need done and why
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sunnyb218759
post Mon, 5 Sep 2022 - 16:03
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QUOTE (sunnyb218759 @ Thu, 18 Aug 2022 - 14:57) *
QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Thu, 18 Aug 2022 - 14:30) *
Use a third party site like Imgur to upload images


thank you thank you thank you

Here we are --> Letter Before Claim from Gladstone



This is the auto-reply I have from UK CPM Ltd <dpo@uk-cpm.com>. Relating to there point on For ID Proof, I attached to the email I sent, my most recent water, and council tax bill. Dated Feb, and April, but these are the only ones I have in my name, the others are in my husband's. Hopefully, these should suffice.


From: Data Protection Officer | UK CPM Ltd <dpo@uk-cpm.com>
Sent: 18 August 2022 14:27
To: My Email Address
Subject: Automatic reply: Subject access request - PCN Number XXXXXXX, dated: ##/##/####

Thank you for contacting UK Car Park Management Ltd.

Please be advised, this email address is used solely for matters relating to Data Protection.

If you have contacted us to submit a Data Subject Access Request, Data Rectification Request or Data Erasure Request (or any other kind of GDPR request) and have provided sufficient information to confirm you are the relevant Data Subject, your request will be actioned, and responded to, within the statutory time frame - one calendar month. Further information concerning response periods can be found at https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/time-l...ights-requests/.

Should we require documentation or information from you to verify your identity we will confirm this to you. Please consider this automatic reply as confirmation your email has been received.

Please note, if the party sending an email to us is not an individual named in relation to a Parking Charge Notice or a Data Subject, we will require authority from the individual concerned to be able to respond to third parties.

If you wish to appeal a Parking Charge, please do so on our website https://www.cpmappeals.co.uk/.


Hi - I sent the above on the 18th, I have an email acknowledgement that it was received. 1 calendar month is 2 Saturdays time, 17th Sept 2022. I have not received any reply to my email to date. I am getting nervous as to what I should be doing now. What I think should happen is: dpo@uk-cpm.com should return to me and complete my Data Subject Access Request. With the info received I phone/ email Gladstone Solicitor and inform them why I'm disputing the "Letter Before Claim" letter sent to me . I'm getting a little worried as the time scale is close. Gladstones letter say they will claim against me on the 21st. Should I be contacting Gladstone now letting them know what I'm doing? Also what happens if dpo@uk-cpm.com don't get back to me.

I'm just trying to get my head around the next steps if anyone can help?

Thanks
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Redx
post Mon, 5 Sep 2022 - 16:09
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Yes you contact Gladstones before the deadline, disputing the alleged debt etc , adding the 30 days notice whilst seeking debt management advice, plus you have emailed a sar to their client, to the DPO and are awaiting the reply. You can also ask Gladstones for details so that you can narrow the issues , so read other LBC threads on doing all this

Don't expect an early reply from anybody

What you are doing is delaying tactics plus obtaining Exhibits ( evidence ) and possibly knowledge too
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hcandersen
post Mon, 5 Sep 2022 - 17:17
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I'm just trying to get my head around the next steps if anyone can help?

As already posted, all that's happening is that you're engaged in delaying tactics. Sadly, this is having more of an effect on you than the opposition and given what you say is the open and shut nature of the issues i.e. you were not the driver and the NTK was delivered late and is therefore void, I don't know why.

If the creditor decides to become a claimant, then you'll have the opportunity to elect for mediation before the court process is activated and IMO given the nature of your defence you should.


In the meantime, I suggest you write back to Gladstone's to keep them in the loop.

Thank you for your letter dated *****.

Although these events happened nearly 4 years ago, my memory of the process which your client has followed is clear. Although you are not the creditor, I note that you have stated that you and they might incur costs proceeding with any claim and I would like to avoid you suffering what would be unrecoverable costs.

You client sent me a PCN Notice to Keeper by normal post which was dated Friday 4 Jan. 2019 in respect of a parking event which occurred on 24 Dec. 2018. The latest date of the 'relevant period' permitted under the Act whereby such a notice would be valid is that it must have been delivered no later than Mon. 7 Jan. 2019, this being the last day of the period of 14 days which began on the day after the event, i.e. 25 Dec. In order to satisfy this condition, the notice would had to have been posted no later than Wed. 3 Jan. 2019 because service is presumed to have been effected on the second working day after posting.

It was dated Thur. 4 Jan.

I hope that having been apprised of the position in which your client finds themselves you might, in your own as well as their interest, prevail on them to cancel the parking charge and draw a line under this matter. If not, then regretfully it will be me and not your client who would be pursuing costs should they insist on taking legal proceedings.

Hugs and Kisses

Is any more needed?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 5 Sep 2022 - 17:32
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sunnyb218759
post Wed, 28 Dec 2022 - 19:32
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I did reply to Gladstone's solicitor, simply explaining my position. IE: The incident happened on 24th Dec 2018. The NTK was issued on Friday 4th Jan 2019 received on 9th Jan 2019, for which I have the below reply from UK CPM:

Dear Person,

Parking Charge Reference number: 1234567
The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 clearly states, “Specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case)”. This is evidenced on our Notice to Owner which states “Issued Date – 4th January 2019”.

The contravention occurred on 24-12-18, therefore UK Car Park Management had 14 days beginning with the day after the specified period of parking ended to issue the parking charge notice; allowing us 14 days from 25-12-18 to issue the PCN. The above parking charge notice was issued, confirmed and sent on 04-01-2019, therefore taking into account Saturday 5th and Sunday 6th January 2019 as per POFA 2012 which states, “A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales”.
Therefore considering the above, the Notice to Owner is believed to have been received on 08-01-2019 which is within this time frame.

As previously stated, UK CPM has not been made aware of any postal issues around this time therefore we cannot be held liable for you receiving the parking charge notice outside of the 14-day discounted period.

We feel we have provided you with sufficient evidence to prove the above parking charge notice has been issued correctly and in line with POFA 2012, therefore we will not be commenting on these matters further.


Yours sincerely


This post has been edited by sunnyb218759: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 - 19:32
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sunnyb218759
post Wed, 28 Dec 2022 - 19:53
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There is a line in the POFA 2012 that reads: “Specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case)”, it is under one of the other paragraphs.

But I thought all of the POFA 2012 act requirements must be met. And my argument still stands. If they say it was delivered within the timeframe and on the 8th Jan. I do not see how that is possible based on how I work out the day count.

Is below the way I'm counting the days, correct?:

24 December 2018 -> Date of Incident
25 December 2018 -> Day 1
26 December 2018 -> Day 2
27 December 2018 -> Day 3
28 December 2018 -> Day 4
29 December 2018 -> Day 5
30 December 2018 -> Day 6
31 December 2018 -> Day 7
01 January 2019 -> Day 8
02 January 2019 -> Day 9
03 January 2019 -> Day 10
04 January 2019 -> Day 11
05 January 2019 -> Day 12
06 January 2019 -> Day 13
07 January 2019 -> Day 14
08 January 2019 -> Day 15 -> Day of delivery

This post has been edited by sunnyb218759: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 - 19:56
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 30 Dec 2022 - 18:56
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They're wrong as they state they can send it within 14 days.

You point oit you an prove otherwise. You have evidence of when it was received - your witness statement.
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Umkomaas
post Sat, 31 Dec 2022 - 11:03
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QUOTE
08 January 2019 -> Day 15 -> Day of delivery


QUOTE
The NTK was issued on Friday 4th Jan 2019 received on 9th Jan 2019

You need to get your ducks in a row if you're arguing about dates.

But if your main line of defence is based on No Keeper Liability under PoFA 'technicality' and the difference between two next-to-next dates, have you prepared yourself for the Judge to simply cut to the chase by asking 'Were you or were you not the driver on the day of the parking incident'. If you can be certain to answer 'No', then your defence is significantly helped by PoFA, otherwise, you need to be considering other angles in developing the defence (you should be in any case, as single point defences can be very risky - eggs in one basket scenario!).
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hcandersen
post Sat, 31 Dec 2022 - 19:04
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I've seen similar posts but have yet to be given any examples where a judge has gone native and sought to establish the claimant's case. In the cases I've read, judges are even-handed and expect claimants to prove their case against the defendant in the defendant's legal status. If the claimant has pursued the defendant as keeper through the various stages and issued proceedings similarly then it is against the defendant as keeper that the case must be made. Simply establishing who was the driver is not the issue, especially if the breach is conceded, because there is no issue that the claimant has a claim against the driver and IMO it would improper for a judge to circumvent the purpose of PoFA by asking such a question.

But happy to be proved wrong and to read the supporting authorities.
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sunnyb218759
post Tue, 3 Jan 2023 - 15:18
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My whole defence is, I do not really remember what day the NtK arrived, I thought it was like the 9th, but I can not prove that.

Meaning my whole and the only defence I have is based on the issue date (the 4th, and this is evident on the notice) and PoFA 2012 guidelines, and according to them, it arrived at the earliest on day 15 (8th Jan 2019).

I was not driving the car at the time.

So how can I be held liable?



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Jlc
post Tue, 3 Jan 2023 - 15:26
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QUOTE (sunnyb218759 @ Tue, 3 Jan 2023 - 15:18) *
So how can I be held liable?

If your whole defence is the 14 days and you cannot show it was later than the presumed service date then it boils down to whether the Judge interprets the 8th of Jan as good enough. (Personally I think it is as it's 14 days beginning the day after the parking event ended but others say otherwise)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 3 Jan 2023 - 18:04
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(Personally I think it is as it's 14 days beginning the day after the parking event ended but others say otherwise)

You are correct, the dates are as the OP has been told consistently and yet keeps second-guessing and bombarding the thread with unnecessary posts.

OP, when you have your claim form elect for mediation in order to save the court's and your time and the claimant's money. The choice is theirs as to whether they agree.

Your defence is simple - simple is best IMO.

Your Honour, the claimant's case against me is that their right to recover a parking charge from the driver may be transferred to me as keeper under the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. I cannot and do not comment on their right to recover a charge from the driver as I was not driving. My defence, as keeper, is that the claimant is prevented from bringing their claim against the keeper by virtue of having not complied with the precedent conditions specified in the Schedule namely the Notice to Keeper(which you will be aware is required to be served in order to exercise their right as creditor) was not served pursuant to the Act as a matter of objective fact i.e. the parking event occurred on 24 December 2019; the latest date for service of a Notice to Keeper was therefore, to use the convoluted but none the less unambiguous wording of the Act, 14 days beginning on the day after the parking event occurred which gives a latest date for service of 7 January; there is no issue that the Notice was posted on Friday 4 January which by virtue of the interpretation provisions of the Act gives a presumed date of delivery of Tuesday 8 January which was 15 days after the parking event, beyond the period allowed under the Act and therefore, I respectfully submit, invalid and therefore of no effect because the Act requires strict compliance.
I would add further that the claimant is not arguing to rebut the presumption of service, instead they have taken it upon themselves to rewrite the provisions of the Act in their own interests and are arguing that 21 days are allowed.

Despite me arguing the contrary consistently at every formal stage through this 4-year saga and indeed extra procedurally, the claimant has acted as a judge in their own cause and simply gainsaid my argument at every turn.

I hope that my next comment would not be seen or taken as being disrespectful to the court, but I have grown tired of constantly looking over my shoulder for 4 years in the fear that I might miss some correspondence from the creditor thus leaving me exposed to the prospect of a default judgment. I hope that today matters may be settled and the actions of the claimant exposed to the impartial scrutiny of the court.
........

Maybe OTT, but when these companies abuse their positions in such a way then they deserve to be heavily criticised by the court and the intention of the last paragraph is to unlock the door on this point in the hope that it's picked up by the court and kicked open by the judge.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 3 Jan 2023 - 22:45
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Maybe - their course of action, in pursuing a claim they know to be without merit, permits of no reasonable explanation, and I therefore ask that the court finds the claimants behaviour to be unreasonable.
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