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PCN paid by Lease company
Trigster
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 10:40
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Morning All,

I need some clever brains on this, we have followed the Sixt example from previous posts relating to a Lessor paying a parking charge notice, the response from our Lessor is below. We have penned a response relating to it not being a fine, penalty etc but the comment about them not being able to represent the 'fine' to us has got us confused, could someone please help us with the correct response to this?

On a different note is the NTK still 14 days, i read somewhere that this could now be as long as 7 months? The reason i ask is that the 'infringement' was 8 weeks ago and their offer to the RK was dated 35 days later. As with all these bogus tickets we ignored this, the car has an annual permit and under the Byelaws there is no legal requirement for the driver to display a ticket or permit. No driver has been identified at this time.

"Good morning Mr X,

Further to your recent email, I am writing with ALD Automotive’s response to your query regarding the payment of your parking penalty charge. For your reference I have attached a copy of the ‘overdue penalty – notice to owner’.

I understand your query to be regarding the parking penalty received. You are dissatisfied that we have made payment for the fine on your behalf and that we have now invoiced you for the cost of the fine plus an administration fee. You were not contacted or given an opportunity to appeal the charge.

Specifically, you mention the attachment is not a fine, charge or penalty etc. However, the notification received from Saba Parking Solutions Ltd makes reference to a penalty charge. As we are the legal owner of the vehicle it is in our interest to ensure that penalty charges are paid within the required timeframe to avoid further action and we did so because these fines escalate rapidly.

Our right to pay penalty charges on your behalf, is outlined in your terms and conditions (attached) under section 5. Indemnities;

5.2 The Customer agrees to indemnify and keep indemnified the Lessor against any fines, fees, charges, invoices or penalties resulting from motoring offences or violation of traffic or parking regulations or restrictions, whether issued by public or private entities, and in addition to pay to the Lessor the consequent reasonable administration charges.

You have commented that the location where the charge has been raised was not Railway Assets. You also mention that you are not responsible under the Railway Bylaw for charges accrued. I have attached an image for the signage taken from google maps at XXX Station Car Park, we recognise the car park holds up to 297 vehicle however, the land belongs to the railway and so the Bylaws are applicable. As mentioned above, you have agreed as part of your contract terms and conditions to keep ALD Automotive Ltd indemnified of any fees, charges, invoices or penalties resulting from parking regulations or restrictions.

Due to the penalty charge being raised at a railway station, it has breached Byelaw 14 which does not allow us to represent this fine to you. The penalty notice was affixed to the windscreen on the offence date, and any appeal should have been raised at this stage where possible.

Please see below further information regarding Byelaw 14, a copy of the Railway Byelaws can be found at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws.

So therefore we haven’t been able to contact you direct about this fine. Any queries don’t hesitate to contact us.

Many thanks,

X"
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post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 10:40
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Half_way
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 11:58
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SABA/indigo often play fast and loose with what constitutes a bye law issue.
To see where things are, why did the vehicle attract a ticket in the first place?
Do not attempt to name the driver.
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Trigster
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 12:19
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hi,

The permit was the wrong way around, the guy who tickets has a device that knows who has paid for a permit or ticket but would rather issue a ticket instead.

The issue isn't with the PPC, it's with the lease company, they have paid the offer from SABA and are now trying to get us to reimburse them. My T's and C's say i'm obliged to pay fines, penalties, invoice etc but these tickets from SABA are not fines, penalties etc, i need to get the lessor to realise this, is there any legislation that states the PPC's aren't allow to issue any forms of demand for money?

thanks
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mike5100
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 12:47
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QUOTE (Trigster @ Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 13:19) *
hi,

The permit was the wrong way around, the guy who tickets has a device that knows who has paid for a permit or ticket but would rather issue a ticket instead.

The issue isn't with the PPC, it's with the lease company, they have paid the offer from SABA and are now trying to get us to reimburse them. My T's and C's say i'm obliged to pay fines, penalties, invoice etc but these tickets from SABA are not fines, penalties etc, i need to get the lessor to realise this, is there any legislation that states the PPC's aren't allow to issue any forms of demand for money?

thanks

That clause 5.2 is a nuisance to anyone leasing a car (is it standard?). Their contract with you seems to allow them to regard legitimate fines and dubious charges or invoices in the same way. If I were a lessor I think I would want a mechanism to prevent me being drawn into these kinds of disputes, otherwise my admin staff might be spending most of their time on them. The legally trained on here will no doubt comment on how good or bad that clause is but it doesn't state explicitly that it relates to YOUR misdemeanours nor does it cover alleged versus proven.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 15:37
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" whether issued by public or private entities,"
It also covers invoices.

Reread that clause, and realise they have apparently covereed themselves

However it states you indemnify them. No tthat they can pay it on your behalf. This deprives you of your rightt o challenge allegations.
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Trigster
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 15:54
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is this of any relevance to prove that anything that SABA send isn't a legal request for payment and therefore not in breach of the lease T's and C's?

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/3110...0Reply.pdf.html

Question:
Please would you tell me if any Secretary of State for Transport since the coming into force of the Railway Act 1993 has ever confirmed or made any laws (including byelaws and regulations) which empower any person or body other than the Courts to impose a penalty for breach of Byelaws 14(1), 14(2) or 14(3) of the Railway Byelaws 2005.

Response:
Having carried out a thorough re-examination of our paper and electronic records I can confirm that the Secretary of State has not confirmed or made any such laws and that no other person or body other than the Court is able to impose a penalty for breach of the Byelaws [including Byelaw 14 (1-3)] made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 (as amended) and made operational on 7 July 2005.

thanks
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mike5100
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 16:03
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 16:37) *
" whether issued by public or private entities,"
It also covers invoices.

Reread that clause, and realise they have apparently covereed themselves

However it states you indemnify them. No tthat they can pay it on your behalf. This deprives you of your rightt o challenge allegations.

Yes - I wondered about that last bit, but would that be seen as an unfair clause in the lease contract. Even if it is, I guess the lessee would have to start a separate legal action to recover money paid out through an unenforceable indemnity clause. Of course if the leasing company has not already simply taken the money and the lessee refuses to re-imburse them, then it presumably is the lease company that has to take action to recover it.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 19:18
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I don't see how it is unfair in and of itself, but they had no reason to just pay it regardless of what they say.
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Trigster
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 20:33
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the issue is that they have paid it and become judge and executioner all at the same time.

The parking is paid annually for this space so there are aren't any unpaid parking charge which makes this all the more annoying.

My terms state the following items for which i am liable;

Fines
Fees
Charges
Invoices
Penalties

If there was something specific which said that none of the above can be issued by a PPC for a Byelaws offence, that would be helpful!

This post has been edited by Trigster: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 20:33
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 20:38
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Byelaws allow for Penalties but create no actual regime for it. The ppc won't dare
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Trigster
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 21:02
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the PPC isn't the issue here as there is no intention by the driver to pay.

What is the legal standing of an offer to pay by the PPC, would it stand up in a court as being a fine, fee, invoice, charge or penalty? I'm sure the lessor could claim it's a charge due to the wording but legally what is it?
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 08:26
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Its an offered contract and invoice in one. Theyre offering the RK a chance to avoid prosecution.
Its not ACTUALLY a penalty notice becausse while the byelaws allow this, there is no regmie in place

HOw many Station threads have you read?
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Trigster
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 09:33
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I've read most of them over the past few years!

This isn't really relevant to a PPC at a station, we've gone past that, this is relevant to a Leasing company receiving a NTK and then forwarding a cost to be paid in alleged breach of their terms and conditions.

If we are going to argue with the leasing company we need to be factual and 100% correct with our statements, anyone can issue an invoice but it's the legality of that invoice that interests me.

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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 10:17
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Yes, of course its bloody relevant!

THe Leasing company paid it because it said "penalty". Theyve told you that!

I was pointing out that while teh byelaws allow this, there is no actual enabling regime so they cant actually issue any "real" penalties.

Only a court can decide if an invoice - which is simply a civil claim that a debt is owed - is "valid" or not.
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