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Bus Lane PCN Oxford Street Manchester
Badger92
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:12
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So, on the 13th Feb I received a bus lane ticket for driving on Oxford Street (Whitworth Street West and Chepstow Street) on 30th Jan. Oxford Street used to be my usual commute to uni but then started to use Mancunian way as traffic wasn’t too bad on there and was quicker so haven’t used Oxford St for a while. Anyway, got the letter and was kicking myself but just figured I would pay it and have done with it (still haven’t paid it as awaiting new bank card!). But then, today, I receive ANOTHER one in which was allegedly contravened 2 days later (1st Feb). (Completely forgot that I went that way again 2 days later). So I rang Manchester City Council and asked for their advice about having 2 PCNs when I wasn’t aware of the first one and they have told me to email representations, which I have done. Just wondering if anyone has had experience of multiple PCNs being appealed and accepted? I’m a poor student and can not justify spending £60 on bus lane fines (I don’t understand why they changed it to a bus lane anyway, there was nothing wrong with Oxford street before!). I have copied the email I have sent so feedback/thoughts would be much appreciated.

To whom it may concern,
I am contacting you today following a telephone conversation with Manchester City Council regarding 2 bus lane Penalty Charge Notices, whom advised me to send an email to yourselves in attempt to appeal the second PCN.
I have previously used this road on a regular basis to commute to my university, therefore was unaware that this road had changed to a bus lane in September during the hours of 6am-9pm Monday-Sunday until I had the telephone conversation.
I have recently revisited the location in which I received the bus lane fines and have noticed the signs, all be it they are not very clear for a driver to read and understand thoroughly before entering the road. Additionally, no road markings indicated that the road changes to a bus lane. Since the restrictions are in place for the majority of the day, 7 days a week, I would expect such road markings would have been visible similar to the road markings that can be seen elsewhere in the city centre.
I am quite happy to pay for my first PCN (XXXXXXXXXX) in which I received on the 13/2/2018 and ensure that I do not enter that area of Oxford Street again, however, since I was not aware of the first contravention when I made the 2nd contravention, I would greatly appreciate if you would kindly consider cancelling the second PCN (XXXXXXXXXX).
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post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:12
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makara
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:17
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Post up ticket (both sides) - this place seems to be becoming a liability.
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Badger92
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:33
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Sorry forgot to add them.

This post has been edited by Badger92: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:35
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:44
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you cannot turn right, and the sign prohibiting motor vehicles, although authorised cannot be seen until you are committed to the turn.

There are other advance warnings on whitworth st but they do not inform of a bus lane and can be easily hidden by high vehicles

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4746083,-...3312!8i6656


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stamfordman
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:52
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We have several other cases at this location but nothing too promising I think given that PCN is issued in time.

This is a detailed one with a draft from PMB on signage:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t117139.html
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 17:06
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:52) *
We have several other cases at this location but nothing too promising I think given that PCN is issued in time.

This is a detailed one with a draft from PMB on signage:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t117139.html


What is highlighted in that thread is the councils attempt to justify the signage. They defended strongly, and as the strongest point for that OP was that the PCN was out of time.

It was decided to concede the signage issue. Not because it had no merit but because it left the council with nothing.

The council have since been called to justify their use of a tribunal finding at another location (Portland st) as it has no relevance so they may be on the back foot


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Badger92
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 17:20
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:44) *
you cannot turn right, and the sign prohibiting motor vehicles, although authorised cannot be seen until you are committed to the turn.

There are other advance warnings on whitworth st but they do not inform of a bus lane and can be easily hidden by high vehicles

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4746083,-...3312!8i6656


I wasn’t turning right. I was going straight down Oxford Street. This happened in between the junctions of Whitworth St and Chepstow St. At least I think so anyway.. Can’t quite remember

This post has been edited by Badger92: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 17:27
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NELSON MANDELA
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 12:57
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There's a requirement in TSRGD 2016 for the posts that the signs are hung to be of a single colour but the poles here appear to be multi coloured, being grey and black and therefore non compliant with TSRGD


Mounting of upright signs

8.—(1) Where an upright sign is mounted on a post or other support specially provided for the purpose, the part of the post or support above the ground must be—

(a)a single colour; or
(b)the natural colour of the post or support,
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Neil B
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:08
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QUOTE (NELSON MANDELA @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 12:57) *
but the poles here appear to be multi coloured, being grey and black and therefore non compliant with TSRGD

Is this a wind-up? laugh.gif


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:29
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:08) *
QUOTE (NELSON MANDELA @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 12:57) *
but the poles here appear to be multi coloured, being grey and black and therefore non compliant with TSRGD

Is this a wind-up? laugh.gif


I think its an very literal interpretation of the regulation part 2(8) But it does not consider that the second post with a black sock is a lamp post. So not specifically provided for the purpose of mounting the sign.


This is not withstanding the adjudicators ire at such an argument being brought, in the face of SC or CS for that matter


QUOTE (Badger92 @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 17:20) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 16:44) *
you cannot turn right, and the sign prohibiting motor vehicles, although authorised cannot be seen until you are committed to the turn.

There are other advance warnings on whitworth st but they do not inform of a bus lane and can be easily hidden by high vehicles

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4746083,-...3312!8i6656


I wasn’t turning right. I was going straight down Oxford Street. This happened in between the junctions of Whitworth St and Chepstow St. At least I think so anyway.. Can’t quite remember



Same basis for challenge can be used but will need refining


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Neil B
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:33
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:29) *
This is not withstanding the adjudicators ire at such an argument being brought, in the face of SC or CS for that matter

I actually visualised an adjudicator leaning across the desk and thumping the appellant. rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:34


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:40
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:33) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:29) *
This is not withstanding the adjudicators ire at such an argument being brought, in the face of SC or CS for that matter

I actually visualised an adjudicator leaning across the desk and thumping the appellant. rolleyes.gif



If its Caroline Sheppard I'd run biggrin.gif


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Badger92
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:57
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I’m not quite sure what you are getting at here? Nothing was mentioned about a pole, therefore your response is not helpful. I have a picture of the sign and the pole is grey.

To reiterate my original question.. what are the chances of having my second PCN revoked when I wasn’t aware of the first one?
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:00
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QUOTE (Badger92 @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:56) *
I’m not quite sure what you are getting at here? Nothing was mentioned about a pole, therefore your response is not helpful. I have a picture of the sign and the pole is grey.


don't worry about it. it Was a misguided attempt to help, or as Neil said a wind up.

Your challenge would need to be on the lines of the signage not being adequate. Not that it is not authorised but that it is located in such a way as to make it difficult to acertain the restriction until it is to late to avoid


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Wizziemum
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:54
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Don't worry - I've just got off my PCN after taking it to the adjudicator. See my thread ....
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Badger92
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:41
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Thanks. Also, the signage doesn’t actually say it’s a bus lane.. it just says no entry for cars/motorbikes between 6am-9pm. Can they fine me for being in a bus lane when I wasn’t in a bus lane?!
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 18:09
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QUOTE (Badger92 @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:41) *
Thanks. Also, the signage doesn’t actually say it’s a bus lane.. it just says no entry for cars/motorbikes between 6am-9pm. Can they fine me for being in a bus lane when I wasn’t in a bus lane?!


That sign is authorised, but adjudicator have questioned its adequacy at a different location further down oxford rd. you need to make the point that it is not easily visible and that due to permit holders being allowed other vehicles pass giving a further impression that the bus lane has not yet started


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Badger92
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 18:33
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 18:09) *
QUOTE (Badger92 @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:41) *
Thanks. Also, the signage doesn’t actually say it’s a bus lane.. it just says no entry for cars/motorbikes between 6am-9pm. Can they fine me for being in a bus lane when I wasn’t in a bus lane?!


That sign is authorised, but adjudicator have questioned its adequacy at a different location further down oxford rd. you need to make the point that it is not easily visible and that due to permit holders being allowed other vehicles pass giving a further impression that the bus lane has not yet started


Well I already sent the email to representations. Do you think I should just wait for the response from them or send a ‘follow on’ email to add that in?
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 19:34
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What have you sent? please post a copy


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Badger92
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 19:37
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 19:34) *
What have you sent? please post a copy

It’s in the original post ☝🏼
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