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Ancient Excel Parking Fine now with B W Legal, Ignore or respond?
ancient_parking_...
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 09:19
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Hello, I am sure there have been many previous posts on this matter but I am looking for some advice.

I received a parking notice nearly 6 years ago from Excel parking which after looking online I ignored. It seems they went away after various threatening letters.

In the last month, I received correspondence saying that this had now been passed onto B W Legal and that they would be in touch to recover the £154 that I now apparently owe.

Now there are a few factors to consider here;
- I no longer live at the address the letters are coming too, it is my parents house.
- I no longer own that car, not for at least 4 years anyway, I believe it was actually crushed as it was on its last legs!

So my question is should I do any of the following;
- Continue to ignore as it is coming up on the 6 year mark (and it is my understanding they cant do anything after 6 years?)
- Write a stern defensive letter to B W Legal (would need some help with that!)
- Wait until I get another letter to my parents and write 'recipient no longer lives at this address - current address unknown' in it and put it back in the post
- another option that I haven't considered?

I was planning on just ignoring the letter but then I had a missed call from a number I don't know, after googling it it was B W Legal (not sure how they got my number), could answer if they call again and pretend to be someone else?

But I am thinking that A) they have no proof that I parked the car and left it there all those years ago and B) Since I no longer live at that address I could technically claim that I have never received any correspondence from them?

Any advice on what I should do would be great as I don't want to end up in court and I am guessing it is too late to appeal this, I just didn't want to engage them incase it makes matters worse and they know I am 'paying attention'

oh and before anyone asks I don't think I have any letters from either Excel or B W Legal that I have kept....

Thanks - a concerned person
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post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 09:19
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Gan
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 09:52
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How close to the six year time-out are you ?

There's reason to believe that BW Legal are deliberately looking for targets that have moved house so they can obtain an easy default judgement
They then collect when the victim next has a credit check (eg buying a phone) and discovers a CCJ

This logic means that ignoring them is more likely to result in a claim

I would therefore go with a firm response - plenty of examples - with a couple of extra lines regarding the delay by their client that amounts to unreasonable behaviour

Never tell a lie at any point
The Supreme Court may have decided that collateral lies may not matter if they don't change the legal position
Small Claims judges may, however, take a different view and decide that your whole evidence is unreliable or divert from the usual calculations when they award costs

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ostell
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 09:54
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If this was 6 years ago then POFA was not in existence and they could only come after the driver. They are hoping that people will not notice that. It's happening a lot at the moment.

If you send a "not at this address" it may tempt them to start a court claim to get a judgement by default, though you would see the paperwork anyway if they continue to use the address.

I would suggest writing to them AS THE KEEPER of the car in question denying any liability for the alleged debt. Point out to them that only the driver could be held liable as this pre-dates POFA and you cannot possibly remember any details from that time. Get into a letter ping pong to take the debt past the magic 6 years of the limitations act. Allow a few more months to be on the safe side.

Write you letter, giving your current address, and post it on here for critique first before posting.
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ancient_parking_...
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 10:08
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It was October 2011, can anyone suggest what I should write or point me towards a thread that relates to exactly what I need to write? I have no idea what I am doing here!

Should I phone them back and do it that way? as in, why have you called me I have never heard from you before? then give them my current address and then start the letter ping pong?



This post has been edited by ancient_parking_ticket: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 10:08
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Gan
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 10:17
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Never phone a debt collector or solicitor

If you don't find a suitable example of a letter on first page of the listed threads, use the search button in the top right corner and search for Excel BW Legal
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ancient_parking_...
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 10:31
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Ok, I found this on the threads, would this be sufficient? only problem is I binned the last letter I had from them and I don't remember the date. I could wait for another to come to my parents house and then send this? advice?

Dear Sir,

With regard to your letter dated xxx

I refer to the an alleged account balance with Excel Parking Ltd in relation to the above Parking Charge Notice. The debt is denied, as registered keeper at the time (not the driver) I have no intention of paying any money wrongly demanded by your client. Please note any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

To clarify, I was merely the registered keeper of that vehicle at the time, not the driver, and as the alleged parking event was before The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 your client has no right to pursue me for payment as registered keeper. In addition, as you are well aware, Excel Parking Services Ltd do not use POFA compliant wording in their notices to keeper, which eliminates the main cause of action that Excel might have had should the matter go to court. BW Legal has previously been made aware of that fact and it is common knowledge found with just a little research on the Internet (i.e. The Prankster website publically informed you in relation to previous “claims”). These facts will used towards proof that the claim would be wholly unreasonable and vexatious, such that I will seek any wasted costs for defending any such baseless proceedings plus my reasonable time charge.
I therefore suggest you and Excel take this matter up with the driver of the vehicle at the time of the allegation. I am unaware of who it may have been as the event appears to be well over 4 years ago and cannot be expected to remember exactly this long afterward, nor am I under any obligation to do so.

As an aside, the Civil Procedure Rules are quite clear that the £54 charges for "Legal Costs" cannot be recovered in the Small Claims Court. POFA is clear that no more may be recovered than is specified in the Notice to Keeper (less any payments made towards the unpaid Parking Charges),
I also believe BW Legal have failed to adhere to the following requirements of the CSA guidance document to members on Debt Collection as follows:
Although the OFT does not expect to see every stage of the process set out in letters of this type, a correct indication of the steps required before enforcement action can be taken should be provided to prevent letters from being misleading, potentially exploiting customers’ lack of knowledge and being perceived by recipients as threatening. – Your initial letter of demand is certainly of a threatening and misleading nature, by virtue of the fact it suggests Court action, County Court Judgement against me, and its effects on my creditworthiness and employability, without any proof I was driving or am even liable. This is not acceptable.


Members are reminded that the granting of Judgments and other orders are court decisions and letters should not pre-empt a particular outcome e.g. that a Judgment will be granted. Communications should not mislead customers to believe that the outcome of legal proceedings will be determined other than at the discretion of the court. –You are misrepresenting the legal process in your letter by pre-empting what the outcome may be in court. In addition, you fail to mention that a CCJ is not automatically entered following a successful hearing. The losing party has 14 days to make payment and if they do this has no effect on credit or employability.

Therefore, even on non-trace-and-collect instructions where the DCA is relying on the information provided by the creditor as being accurate, the DCA should consider whether reference to legal proceedings in a first letter is appropriate. Also, the actions of a Member may be considered aggressive if its first contact with a customer threatens legal action if the customer has not been recently requested to make contact to discuss a payment proposal.
You have made demands for payment within 16 days and reference of legal proceedings in your first ever correspondence with me. This is not acceptable. You obviously hold incorrect information on the account which could not be pursued through the courts as your client has no cause of action against the keeper, as detailed above. I consider your letter to be aggressive and threatening, and it has caused stress and undue harassment. I cannot state more clearly, I was not the driver and have no liability in this case.

Credit Services Association Code of Conduct (CSA) - Non Compliance by BW Legal

10a) only state an intention to commence proceedings that are reasonably likely to be undertaken against or applied for in respect of the customer- As explained above, you have no cause of action to commence proceedings as you are well aware.

10c) not mislead customers as to the consequences or inevitability of consequences arising from any legal or bankruptcy action- As described above, you have knowingly sought to mislead regarding the legal process and consequences of such proceedings on me in an effort to make me pay up immediately.

10d) comply with section D (“Content - Legal”) of the CSA’s Standard Debt Collection Communication Guidance document- as discussed above; clear breaches of their code of conduct have been made by BW Legal.

10k) only impose such costs and interest on customers as it is lawfully entitled
-Notwithstanding that Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act (2012) does not apply in any case, should you attempt to use this to pursue me as keeper then statute limits my liability to the amount of the original parking charge only, not legal costs.

As I dispute this charge and consider this matter now closed, I politely request that you do not contact me further and refer the matter back to your client Excel Parking with the following comments:

Please inform Excel that the Data Protection Act requires that they now delete my records. They cannot hold a keeper liable and Elliot v Loake does not apply as there is no evidence of who the driver was. I have never consented to my personal details and data being shared by Excel and I revoke any permission they may have incorrectly given you. Your communication on their behalf is basically harassment of me which has caused distress and upset and I object to my personal data being processed in this manner without my permission.
Quotation from Data Protection Act 1998
Right to prevent processing likely to cause damage or distress.
(1)Subject to subsection (2), an individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin, processing, or processing for a specified purpose or in a specified manner, any personal data in respect of which he is the data subject, on the ground that, for specified reasons—
(a)the processing of those data or their processing for that purpose or in that manner is causing or is likely to cause substantial damage or substantial distress to him or to another, and
(b) That damage or distress is or would be unwarranted.
I therefore request Excel remove all my details within 21 days of this notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act as I believe they are clearly in breach of section 1 of the Act.

Should this not happen I will be complaining directly to the DVLA about the actions of Excel parking, and to the ICO as I believe Excel are clearly in breach of the Data Protection act sharing my personal data which has resulted in unwarranted distress and loss of my time preparing and responding to your letter.

Should any further correspondence be forthcoming from yourselves I will be left with no choice to report BW Legal to the SRA (Solicitors' Regulatory Authority) and the CSA (Credit Services Association) for the various non-compliances, breaches and misleading/threatening information contained within your letter as detailed above.

Yours Faithfully
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Gan
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 11:07
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All you're trying to do is send the message that you're not going to roll over and pay them
They don't want a court hearing any more than you do - just a victim that caves in or doesn't reply and gives them the opportunity of a default judgement.

I personally prefer short and blunt that doesn't leave loose threads to twist against you or use as a distraction
Plenty of examples

Don't say you weren't the driver unless it's true

Similarly, no point making threats unless you're prepared to carry them out
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ancient_parking_...
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 12:44
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Okay how about this;

Dear Sir,

With regard to your letter dated xxx

I deny any debt to Excel Parking Services and/or yourselves (B W Legal)

To clarify, I was the registered keeper of that vehicle at the time, and as the alleged parking event was before The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 your client has no right to pursue me for payment purely as the registered keeper.

As I dispute this charge and consider this matter now closed, I politely request that you do not contact me further and refer the matter back to your client Excel Parking with the following comments:

Please inform Excel that the Data Protection Act requires that they now delete my records. They cannot hold a keeper liable as there is no evidence of who the driver was.
I have never consented to my personal details and data being shared by Excel and I revoke any permission they may have incorrectly given you. Your communication on their behalf is basically harassment of me which has caused distress and upset and I object to my personal data being processed in this manner without my permission.

I therefore request Excel remove all my details within 21 days of this notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act as I believe they are clearly in breach of section 1 of the Act.

Yours Faithfully
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ostell
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 12:52
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QUOTE (ancient_parking_ticket @ Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 12:44) *
Okay how about this;

Dear Sir,

With regard to your letter dated xxx

I deny any debt to Excel Parking Services and/or yourselves (B W Legal)

To clarify, I was the registered keeper of that vehicle at the time, and as the alleged parking event was before The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 your client has no right to pursue me for payment purely as the registered keeper.

As I dispute this charge and consider this matter now closed, I politely request demand that you do not contact me further and refer the matter back to your client Excel Parking with the following comments:

Please inform Excel that the Data Protection Act requires that they now delete my records. They cannot hold a keeper liable as there is no evidence of who the driver was.
I have never consented to my personal details and data being shared by Excel and I revoke any permission they may have incorrectly given you. Your communication on their behalf is basically harassment of me which has caused distress and upset and I object to my personal data being processed in this manner without my permission.

I therefore request Excel remove all my details within 21 days of this notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act as I believe they are clearly in breach of section 1 of the Act.

Yours Faithfully

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Gan
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 13:29
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PS

I note your inappropriate demand for £54 "legal costs".
You are perfectly aware that these cannot be recovered in the Small Claims Court
In the unlikely event that your client has actually paid these costs, they are none of my concern
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ancient_parking_...
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 13:58
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Great thank you!

So just to confirm the below is good to go (should I put my actual address or the one they are sending the letters too? is that an important factor?, also I am presuming they will write back so shall I keep this thread open and updated with any correspondence?


Dear Sir,

With regard to your letter dated xxx

I deny any debt to Excel Parking Services and/or yourselves (B W Legal)

To clarify, I was the registered keeper of that vehicle at the time, and as the alleged parking event was before The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 your client has no right to pursue me for payment.

As I dispute this charge and consider this matter now closed, I demand that you do not contact me further and refer the matter back to your client Excel Parking with the following comments:

Please inform Excel that the Data Protection Act requires that they now delete my records. They cannot hold a keeper liable.

I have never consented to my personal details and data being shared by Excel and I revoke any permission they may have incorrectly given you. Your communication on their behalf is basically harassment of me which has caused distress and upset and I object to my personal data being processed in this manner without my permission.

I therefore request Excel remove all my details within 21 days of this notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act as I believe they are clearly in breach of section 1 of the Act.

Also I note your inappropriate demand for £54 "legal costs".
You are perfectly aware that these cannot be recovered in the Small Claims Court
In the unlikely event that your client has actually paid these costs, they are none of my concern.

Yours Faithfully
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ancient_parking_...
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 15:16
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Great thank you!

So just to confirm the below is good to go (should I put my actual address or the one they are sending the letters too? is that an important factor?, also I am presuming they will write back so shall I keep this thread open and updated with any correspondence?


Dear Sir,

With regard to your letter dated xxx

I deny any debt to Excel Parking Services and/or yourselves (B W Legal)

To clarify, I was the registered keeper of that vehicle at the time, and as the alleged parking event was before The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 your client has no right to pursue me for payment.

As I dispute this charge and consider this matter now closed, I demand that you do not contact me further and refer the matter back to your client Excel Parking with the following comments:

Please inform Excel that the Data Protection Act requires that they now delete my records. They cannot hold a keeper liable.

I have never consented to my personal details and data being shared by Excel and I revoke any permission they may have incorrectly given you. Your communication on their behalf is basically harassment of me which has caused distress and upset and I object to my personal data being processed in this manner without my permission.

I therefore request Excel remove all my details within 21 days of this notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act as I believe they are clearly in breach of section 1 of the Act.

Also I note your inappropriate demand for £54 "legal costs".
You are perfectly aware that these cannot be recovered in the Small Claims Court
In the unlikely event that your client has actually paid these costs, they are none of my concern.

Yours Faithfully
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 15:23
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You keep to JUST this one thread, as per the rules you agreed to...

You give them the address for correspondence that makes most sense.
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ostell
post Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 15:26
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And reference the PCN numbers so that they can find them.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 - 15:26
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ancient_parking_...
post Mon, 22 Aug 2016 - 12:25
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Hello, so b w legal finally responded, sent their reply to my old address again! even though I have them my new address. I am having trouble uploading the attached photo of the reply so see below;

"Dear sir/madam,

Our client: vehicle control services limited
Account number:
Balance: £153 ("the balance")

We write in reference to the above matter and your correspondence dated xx July 2026, we detail VCS's position below.

VCS's claim is for the sum of £154.00 and is in relation to monies (and legal expenses) owed pursuant to the PCN.

The PCN contravention (as stated on the PCN) occurred on xx xx 2011 at xxxxxxxx ("the car park"), where the vehicle bearing registration number xxxxxx parked for longer than the maximum period permitted.

Please note that our client does not rely on The Protection of Freedom of Acts 2012 and we would refer you to the case of Elliot v Loake (1982).

We note your contention that the PCN charge of £100.00 is likely to be a penalty and is an unreasonable amount. We direct you to the leading authority of ParkingEye Limited v Beavis (2015) UKSC 67, where the Supreme Court held that PCN charges, like this charge, are not a penalty and serve a legitimate commercial interest. The relevant car parking Codes of Practise, also gives guidance that £100.00 is a reasonable sum to charge.

Furthermore, our legal fees of £54.00 are reasonable for a professional law firm dealing in this type of legal work and payment of such fees was detailed in the terms and conditions located within the Car Park.

In order to prevent further costs from being incurred we would be grateful if you would contact us within 7 days from the date of this letter to pay the Balance.

In the event you are unable to pay the Balance in full, please contact our helpful team, on the details above, to discuss our suitable payment options.

We look forward to hearing from you within 7 days.

Yours faithfully

BW Legal"

So how should I take things forward from here???
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 22 Aug 2016 - 13:43
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Surely you have been reading other BW LEgal threads and not staying isolated on this little thread, one of dozens just like it? The answer and examples of further responses are littered all over the first few pages of this forum, on lots of other threads and you will always glean more from reading what's already been tried before, than staying on one thread.

SRA and CSA complaints can be pursued (strong examples are on other threads from just days ago) and another response to BW Legal, so as not to leave the ball in their court.
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Gan
post Mon, 22 Aug 2016 - 14:11
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Dear Sir

Ref ****

I note your letter dated ****

I stand by my previous response

I also note that you have ignored my updated contact address and sent the letter to an old address

I do not know if this was intentional but, if I discover a default judgement as a result of your failure to use the correct details, I will hold your client liable for the full costs of the set aside application.
I will produce my two letters as evidence to the court.

Yours Faithfully


This post has been edited by Gan: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 - 14:12
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ancient_parking_...
post Mon, 22 Aug 2016 - 15:31
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Gan - many thanks, that gives me something to start with smile.gif

SchoolRunMum; - I am aware that there are many other posts regarding BW Legal (which I have been looking at) but I presumed whilst each case could be similar, they would not be identical?
I am a total novice with this and haven't got a clue what I am doing here, so I started a thread purely to get advice on my individual case.
Apologies if that was the incorrect thing to do, or if it has caused any irritation as it was not my intent.
I also didn't want to just read up about it on another thread and then send something back to them without checking it was the correct thing to do in my situation.
Thank you for your advice on complaining which I will look into, and also for your other advice.
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 22 Aug 2016 - 15:48
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QUOTE
I am aware that there are many other posts regarding BW Legal (which I have been looking at) but I presumed whilst each case could be similar, they would not be identical?


They pretty much are alike (because BW Legal churn these letters out identically) and the responses and CSA and SRA complaints are al useable too. Make sure you do those complaints, as well as using Gan's response.
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Redx
post Mon, 22 Aug 2016 - 15:59
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here is what I wrote yesterday on another forum (ignoring "what happened on the day" )

QUOTE
your "case" is no different to any other debt collector case

example

1) EXCEL (or VCS , or CEL or UKPC or UKCPS or some other PPC) issued a pcn , an invoice , ( or several ) sometime in the last 6 years

this invoice just happens to be for a parking infringement but could have been for an unpaid bill for some other "service"

2) this was ignored , not paid , so they chased it up , again - ignored

3) they gave it to debt collectors to chase up , again - ignored

4) the debt collectors may have used legal headed paper purporting to come from a solicitor to chase the debt up - again - ignored

5) they gave it to a solicitors/legal firm to chase up - again ignored

6) the solicitors then send out a letter that may or may not be an LBC but should be treated as one , so a debt is denied letter is sent back
(which GAN is especially adept at composing)

7) an MCOL will follow if point 6) above is ignored

all the above is for an alleged debt , the invoice , plus they may try to add costs on as well, because everybody wants their pound of flesh


hope that helps to explain why they are almost all identical

This post has been edited by Redx: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 - 15:59
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