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HADECS3 Camera - Potential fine.
corb691
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 06:55
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Morning,

I was driving on the southbound M6 last night and as I joined on from the M54, there was a sign saying Lane 1 and 4 closed and restriction of 40 in the two middle lanes. In addition to this, there was a sign that suggested a car was upside down.

It was about 10pm so very little traffic on the road, but it did slow down as you would expect. Then it became clear that there was no lane closed, no upside down vehicle and in the distance, the next gantry said national speed limit. So as I passed through the gantry with 40, I was doing 55-60 and there was a flash. I knew the camera was there, I drive on the motorway everyday so I was aware of it.

I was just wondering if I have a case to argue based on the following points;

1. The sign suggested a road accident but there was no accident in site. I continued all the way down to the M5 exit and there was nothing. So is there a technicality on the basis that I have been misinformed, lack of clarity, incorrect signage??
2. The gantry ahead said national speed limit so that would inform the driver that the road is clear.
3. The purpose of these cameras which have been installed on smart motorways, is to keep traffic moving and reduce the number of accidents. As far as I'm concerned there was no reason to manage traffic as there was nothing there!

I totally understand that their is a fixed speed limit and I've broken it. But I do feel there is some ambiguity surrounding the situation I find myself in. In addition to this, why do the HADECS3 not do the same on other motorways. I drive on the M5 everyday and there is a 40 restriction when clearly you can go faster and nobody gets picked up then.

As a useful side note, I haven't received an NIP yet! So it might be me worrying about nothing but I'm confident that the camera flashed me.

Do I have any case to argue??
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post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 06:55
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Jlc
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 07:27
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QUOTE (corb691 @ Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 07:55) *
Do I have any case to argue??

No.

Just to be clear, you went under a gantry displaying 40 at 55-60?


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

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The Rookie
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 07:28
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1/ No
2/ No
3/ No


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122basy
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 07:29
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1. No. The only thing that has been conveyed to you is L1 closed, L4 Closed, do not use them. The road that is open to you is a 40mph speed limit until you pass a de-restriction sign.

2. It is and it is a 70mph limit for cars and motorcycles after you pass that sign...not before you reach it.

3. To achieve that purpose drivers must comply with the signs and not make up temporary and local amendments as they see fit.

There is no ambiguity, see 1 to 3 above.

The HADECS3 systems work when there is more than one vehicle in the camera view so you may not have been the car that was flashed. You may be lucky.

IMHO you have no case to argue except that you didn't understand how to comply with the signs. I don't think that will work for you though.
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corb691
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 07:33
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OK, thanks for all of your responses. There was another vehicle behind me so I'm not sure. Can't really do much unless an NIP comes through the post.
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cp8759
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 22:07
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I would put in a FOI request asking why the limit was in force, when it was imposed and when it was lifted. It's a very, very long shot but if you can show the speed limit was imposed in circumstances where no reasonable decision maker would have imposed it, you *might* have a case.


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Jlc
post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 09:57
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QUOTE (mardeman @ Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 10:32) *
...I have seen that IF (most likely- when ) I get the NIP I can ask for the evidence

You can ask for anything but they do not have to supply it. (Until the matter goes to court) And indeed, there's no free-for-all 'fishing trip' to request anything you like. The prosecution will be relying on the speed measurement, evidence of the limit (log/picture+traffic order) and driver evidence. The defendant would have to introduce their own evidence if appropriate - putting it to the prosecution that the limit was 'appropriate' will likely not assist.

Of course, when facing a totting ban there's probably an incentive to attempt any sort of defence however much of a long shot it is...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 10:00


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 09:59
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QUOTE (mardeman @ Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 10:32) *
I have seen that IF (most likely- when ) I get the NIP I can ask for the evidence, which will show when the limit was enforced, and when it was switched off, and I will be curious to find out WHY the limit was put in.

Don't wait for any NIP, put an FOI request to Highways England now.


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Jlc
post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 10:01
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 10:59) *
QUOTE (mardeman @ Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 10:32) *
I have seen that IF (most likely- when ) I get the NIP I can ask for the evidence, which will show when the limit was enforced, and when it was switched off, and I will be curious to find out WHY the limit was put in.

Don't wait for any NIP, put an FOI request to Highways England now.

+1


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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mardeman
post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 10:16
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Would this be sufficient?
and can I email it, or should I post it??

I would like to make a freedom of information request regarding the variable speed limit imposed on the M1 Southbound around Junction 18 on the 22nd of June 2018 that was active sometime around 1pm.
If you could please confirm:-
What time is was activated
What time it was cleared
What the incident was.

Also, if you have any information as to how many speed limit signs were activated during this event.

I look forward to your prompt response.

Thank you in advance.

This post has been edited by mardeman: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 10:17
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Jlc
post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 11:03
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Google is your friend - here.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 11:05
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Just as for all the logs for the variable speed limit signs for M1 southbound between juncs x and y between 00.00 and 23.59 on 22nd June 2018.

Gives you more to work with, the error logs can be just as informative as when/why the signs were set.
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mardeman
post Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 11:19
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 12:03) *
Google is your friend - here.


Whats interesting is that I have just emailed them.
On their auto response, there is a message that states - if this is for freedom of information....... They must get 100's of requests from people checking what happened.!!
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southpaw82
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 15:00
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Public law aspect split into the flame pit.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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