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Excel/VCS/bwlegal - PCN from March 2012, Threads merged
Persephone
post Tue, 30 Aug 2016 - 14:10
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I collected information from this forum after the receipt of a “Notice to Owner” dated 16/4/2012 until the threatening letters from Whites stopped arriving later in 2012. I did not respond to any of those.
On 27th July 2016 I received the letter from VCS passing my “account” to bwLegal and, in the same post, another letter from bwLegal claiming a “balance due” of £174.00, comprising a PCN charge of £120.00 plus £54.00 “initial legal costs”. Once again I researched this forum and came up with this response:

1 August 2016
Dear Sir/Madam,

In response to your letter of 25 July 2016, a copy of which I enclose, I deny any debt to Vehicle Control Services Parking Limited. As I’m sure you are aware, the alleged event took place before the enactment of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, and I was not the driver. Thus, your client has no right to pursue me as the registered keeper.

You have no reasonable cause to continue to process my personal information, including Vehicle Registration Mark. As such you must confirm within 21 days that you and all your agents have ceased processing my data, to prevent further distress and harassment being caused. You must treat this as a Section 10 notice under the Data Protection Act.

No consent has been given, or will be given, for you to process my data. Should you contend consent was given, which is denied, it is revoked.

Do not reference Elliot Vs Loake. You are fully aware this does not apply in this case. Similarly, I should not have to remind you that your £54 "legal" charges cannot possibly be recovered at small claims, as per CPR27.14.

In summary:
1 I was not the driver of the vehicle on 16 March 2012.
2 BW Legal has attempted to mislead me by demanding £54 legal costs, which cannot be recovered in the Small Claims Court.
3 BW Legal has also misrepresented the consequences of a judgement - a CCJ “may have a detrimental effect on my future creditworthiness and employability”.
4 Vehicle Control Services Parking Limited’s delay of over four years to begin legal action is unreasonable behaviour.

Yours faithfully,



bwLegal’s response to that arrived on 25/8/2016 (dated 23 Aug).


I’ll try to post an image.


What is the best way forward? Do I use Gan’s concise response:

Dear Sir/Madam,
Ref: *****
I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 23 August 2016.

I refer you to my previously reply, a copy of which is enclosed

My position is unchanged

Yours Faithfully

OR can I rant a bit?

Dear Sir/Madam,
Ref: *****
I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 23 August 2016 and would like to draw your attention to the following:
1. I deny any debt to your client. The £174.00 is the sum of £120.00 PCN Charge plus £54.00 your legal fees.
2. I did not “suggest” I was not the driver of the car. I clearly stated I was not the driver.
3. I do not know who the driver was on 16 March 2012. Even if I did it would be impossible to provide you with that information “within 7 days” as you letter arrived on Thursday 25th August - just before a Bank Holiday weekend.
4. You referenced the case Elliot Vs Loake despite my pointing out to you that it does not apply in this case.
5. Your extract From the DVLA Release of Information document does not address my request that you cease processing my data.
6. your reference to the £100.00 PCN charge does not match with point 1, where the PCN charge is clearly £120.00 (£174.00 minus £54.00 legal fees).
7. Your reference to ParkingEye v Beavis (2015) is not relevant in this case.
8. Your statement that “the relevant car parking Codes of Practice also gives guidance that £100.00 is a reasonable sum to charge” seems to be an error as you are asking me to pay a charge of £120.00. See also points 1 and 6.
9. Referencing the “detailed terms and conditions located within the Car Park” is not very helpful as I have already stated that I was not in that car park.
Finally, I was staying in a hotel in Basingstoke at a family event over the weekend 16 - 18 March 2012. I was not the driver of the vehicle on 16th March 2012. I do not know who was driving the vehicle on that date.

Yours Faithfully
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post Tue, 30 Aug 2016 - 14:10
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ostell
post Fri, 11 May 2018 - 21:40
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Have you requested a file copy of that dated photograph? The metadata might show show something different.
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Persephone
post Fri, 11 May 2018 - 22:45
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 22:40) *
Have you requested a file copy of that dated photograph? The metadata might show show something different.


I’m not sure what a file copy is and I really don’t know what metadata is.
More research for me. I’ll ask BW and see what response they come up with. Probably nothing. But even that can be added to the list of non-compliance.
Thanks.
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ostell
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 07:02
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Since it's probably a digital photograph ask for the computer file. Metadata is data hidden within the file that gives information, amongst other things, about when the photo was take. Look at a jpg file on your computer and right click on the icon then left click on "properties". Lots of information about the photo becomes available. Or may not but it's worth a try.
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cyclocross
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 18:04
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I'm concerned by your statement that you've exchanged witness statements but do not have a hearing date yet.
That's unusual. Are you sure that the documents you've received from the court don't contain a hearing date?
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Persephone
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 19:30
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QUOTE (cyclocross @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 19:04) *
I'm concerned by your statement that you've exchanged witness statements but do not have a hearing date yet.
That's unusual. Are you sure that the documents you've received from the court don't contain a hearing date?


I had the same thought a couple of days ago and went through the document again - and again. The only date was 23rd April, 4pm as the latest to provide the court and the opponent with WS and copies of documents. It's only been three weeks and the court is aware that I'm not available this coming week. I'll call the court when I get home, though.
I've also got to contact BWLegal to request the computer files of their WS photos of the signage.

Does the claimant get a copy of my skeleton argument? When do I provide the court with a copy?

Many thanks for your helpful ideas.
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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 19:07
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You send court and claimant a copy, about three days before the hearing

Post the documents you have from your local court. Suitably redacted.
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Persephone
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 20:09
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Sun, 13 May 2018 - 20:07) *
You send court and claimant a copy, about three days before the hearing

Post the documents you have from your local court. Suitably redacted.

I will do that when I return home at the end of this week. I will phone the court before that just to reassure myself.

Thanks for the information.
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Persephone
post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 12:00
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Phoned the court this morning. They have received both Witness Statements and the case has not yet been listed. It should be less than a month.
That's a relief.
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Persephone
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:40
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 12 May 2018 - 08:02) *
Since it's probably a digital photograph ask for the computer file. Metadata is data hidden within the file that gives information, amongst other things, about when the photo was take. Look at a jpg file on your computer and right click on the icon then left click on "properties". Lots of information about the photo becomes available. Or may not but it's worth a try.


I sent BW an email this morning requesting the computer file photos and received them this afternoon.
I use Mac OS and preview. The dated photos have loads of info and appear to be okay. The other three have virtually no metadata.

I grouped them in screenshots and hope they appear okay in this post. Otherwise, I'll post them separately tomorrow.





Just waiting for a court date now and twiddling with my SA. Costs are almost organised too.
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 22:23
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Yes they really do look photo shopped.

When you zoom in on the words on the red background, specifically looking at the penultimate load of guff in the bottom right image, do the words look like they are 'diagonal' to you? they do to me...

There are no cable ties attaching those very rectangular signs to the posts.

Can you read if VCS offered the parking, or Excel? Often they get in a mess between the two companies on their signs.

How about sending VCS a SAR asking for all data held about your VRN, photos, letters, the lot.

After 25th May, GDPR makes a SAR free. Do it immediately at the end of this week, direct to VCS, not via BW Legal, and as a postal letter (get free proof of posting at the PO Counter - NEVER signed-for) stating your name, address and VRN.
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Persephone
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 19:35
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A court date at last!





A friend who is an IT expert has explained that metadata doesn't necessarily change when an image has been altered. So unchanged metadata neither proves nor disproves that a photo has been photoshopped. He agreed that the photos look as though additions have been made.
As far as I see all the images have Vehicle Control Services Ltd as the PPC.

A SAR data request to VCS is next on my list.

This post has been edited by Persephone: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 20:23
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Persephone
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 20:20
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 23:23) *
How about sending VCS a SAR asking for all data held about your VRN, photos, letters, the lot.

After 25th May, GDPR makes a SAR free. Do it immediately at the end of this week, direct to VCS, not via BW Legal, and as a postal letter (get free proof of posting at the PO Counter - NEVER signed-for) stating your name, address and VRN.


So pleased you suggested this SchoolRunMum. Thank you.

A large envelope arrived this week from VCS which a wealth of information about me and the case.
They list an Equifax trance on me in July 2017. In January this year there were several attempts to phone me on a number which they discover is "wrong" but which I recognise as that of my last employer. I retired in August 2010!

There is a note of a booking for ELMS legal and, later, a confirmation from ELMS. This would be the ELMS of Parking Prankster fame.

In April there were a series of emails between a paralegal at BWLegal and VCS @Excel.co.uk. The paralegal was requesting evidence for the Witness Statement. There were repeated requests for Contract clarification which finally arrived on 23rd April - the last day for filing the WS.
I will attach a redacted copy of this email with some annotations of my own.
Could I use this in my Skeleton Argument? It suggests uncertainty over their standing.

And today I received an letter containing an offer "WITHOUT PREJUDICE SAVE AS TO COSTS". It notes the balance due as £338.26. This is the original claim amount plus £25, the court fee I assume.
Their Client is willing to settle for £175. The offer expires on 24 July. The court fee has to be paid on the 20 July. I will of course respond - in due course.

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Jlc
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 20:26
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QUOTE (Persephone @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 21:20) *
...is willing to settle for £175. I will of course respond - in due course.

How generous - for a case where you can prove you were not the driver?

Your response could either be a drop hands or even for them to pay you a settlement to avoid their costs at court... wink.gif


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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emanresu
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 21:10
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That part of Newcastle has been heavily changed over the years since 2012 - which you will most likely know. Suggest you use Google's Street View and it's time line feature to see what might have changed.

They've dropped out of cases for this car park at the last moment before. No guarantees but suspect the uncertainties in the contract and the pics will be in your favour.

Send them your own list of costs that you'll be claiming.


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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whjohnson
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 22:25
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VCS issued the ticket? Yet Excel are writing to you?
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 08:34
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I would respond back, listing your costs, including the costs for unreasonable behaviour you will be claiming. You can prove you were not the drvier, and it is impossible for you to be responsible as keeper as this was before POFA. They have never had any reasonable chance of success - theyve had no chance, and have just wasted your time.

Just list out time spent resaerrching, writing defence, getting phtoos, compiling WS, printing etc. All at £19 per hour.
SUggest that you will accept half that amount to be saved the hassle of turning up at court and winning.
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jdh
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 12:56
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 22:10) *
They've dropped out of cases for this car park at the last moment before. No guarantees but suspect the uncertainties in the contract and the pics will be in your favour.
Which means there could be posts & pics on here somewhere that might help show what was where and when.
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