Nuttall Street, Hackney PCN, Nuttall Street, Hackney PCN |
Nuttall Street, Hackney PCN, Nuttall Street, Hackney PCN |
Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 10:09
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 15 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,420 |
I just received a PCN for a No Left Turn contravention at the junction of Nuttall St and Hoxton St. I cannot recall seeing the "No Left Turn" sign.
PCN did not specify the nature of the contravention as can be seen, it only mentioned "Performing a prohibited turn". I have watched the CCTV evidence on Hackney Council's website and it only showed me turning left but did not show me passing through the "No Left Turn" sign, could this be a ground for appeal? Any help with the draft for the appeal would be sincerely appreciated. |
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Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 10:09
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Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:42
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,810 |
You've omitted date of offence/date of notice, can you list them as these can often give grounds for a technical defense.
-------------------- PCNs sucessfully contested with the help of this forum:
Newham 1/1 Enfield 1/1 Hackney 3/4 Ealing 0/1 LCC 1/1 CoL 1/1 PPC successfully contested with the help of this forum: UKPC 1/1 TPS 1/1 ECP 0/1 Overall success rate getting tickets overturned: 75% |
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Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 14:56
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 15 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,420 |
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Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:26
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,810 |
You've omitted date of offence/date of notice, can you list them as these can often give grounds for a technical defense. Please find the Dates below. Date of Contravention: 30/07/2018 Date of Issue: 13/08/2018 Date PCN Received: 15/08/2018 Thanks Unfortunately it looks like it was served within the legal time frames. Lets wait until someone else more experienced comments, but from what I can see you can probably adapt points 2 and 3 as potential arguments from my case, as neither the direction of the prohibited turn, nor a specific location are specified in your PCN: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1405015 This post has been edited by ohnoes: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 15:28 -------------------- PCNs sucessfully contested with the help of this forum:
Newham 1/1 Enfield 1/1 Hackney 3/4 Ealing 0/1 LCC 1/1 CoL 1/1 PPC successfully contested with the help of this forum: UKPC 1/1 TPS 1/1 ECP 0/1 Overall success rate getting tickets overturned: 75% |
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Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 21:48
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I agree with ohnoes, Nutall Street has a number of junctions and you can't work out which one they refer to from the PCN, and they also don't say if it's a left or right turn. Adapt grounds 2 & 3 from the case above and post on here before sending to the council.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 10:50
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 15 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,420 |
I agree with ohnoes, Nutall Street has a number of junctions and you can't work out which one they refer to from the PCN, and they also don't say if it's a left or right turn. Adapt grounds 2 & 3 from the case above and post on here before sending to the council. Please help review the draft below as per your post above. Ground 1: The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: The PCN does not state the grounds on which the enforcement authority believe a penalty charge is payable: Although these proceedings are civil in nature, it is a long established principle of law that anyone accused of wrongdoing must be given unambiguous particulars of the nature of the accusation he faces. The penalty charge served by the enforcement authority does not specify whether the prohibited turn is a left turn, a right turn or a u-turn, it simply states “50 Performing a prohibited turn” While previous decisions are not binding they can be persuasive and I submit Austin Biesty v London Borough of Brent (case reference 2130412623) as persuasive authority in this instance. In that case the tribunal held that: “The Penalty Charge Notice ('PCN') in this case describes the alleged traffic contravention as Failing to comply with a sign indicating a prohibited turn. However, the PCN fails to particularise what turn is prohibited, left or right. Also, whilst the Penalty Charge Notice ('PCN') includes superimposed pictures, it is impossible to see in the copy filed any actual traffic sign(s) that the appellant is alleged to have failed to comply with and there is no copy of the sign(s) themselves superimposed on the PCN. In the circumstances, I find that the PCN is invalid and unenforceable as it fails to comply with the requirements of section 4(8)(a)(i) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 ('LLA & TFL Act 2003'), which states that the PCN "must (a) state (i) the grounds on which the council...believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle". In these circumstances, I must allow this appeal.” In this case, as in Austin Biesty v London Borough of Brent, the PCN fails to particularise what turn is prohibited and the signs which are alleged to have been contravened are not visible on the PCN. It follows that the PCN in this case also fails to comply with section 4(8)(a)(i) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 and the appeal must be allowed. Ground 2: The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: The PCN does not particularise the location of the alleged contravention: The Ordinence Survey website shows that Nuttall street is a street that has multiple stretches of road and extends from the junction with Kingsland Road in the north to the junction with Hoxton Street in the south, along its length it has multiple intersections and the PCN does not specify where on Nuttall street the contravention is said to have occurred. I submit Matthew Kelly v London Borough of Harrow (case reference 216029138A) as persuasive authority: “Mr Kelly has appeared in person with his son, Mr Sean Kelly. This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being in a bus lane in Northolt Road Northbound at 12.49pm on 12 March 2016. Mr Kelly appeals because he says that the PCN does not sufficiently identify the location of the alleged contravention. His evidence shows that there are 5 camera enforcement locations in Northolt Road. Although the Council says in its case summary that the location is Northolt Road at the junction with Shaftesbury Avenue, this is not clear from the PCN. The PCN must state the grounds on which the Council believe that the penalty charge is payable. Those grounds must be expressed in terms that allow the recipient of the PCN to know not just the nature of the alleged contravention but exactly where it is said to have occurred. I agree with Mr Kelly that this PCN did not sufficiently identify the location of the alleged contravention and I allow the appeal for this reason.” I aver that the PCN does not allow the recipient to understand where on Nuttall Street the allegation is said to have occurred and the appeal must therefore be allowed.
Attached File(s)
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Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 10:56
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
I think the signage is inadequate - - just one sign quite high up on the left and mounted on a zebra crossing pole - you'd be focusing on the crossing at that point. So worth adding.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5341576,-0....3312!8i6656 |
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Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 11:12
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#8
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Yes, the mounting height is an issue especially with that round light below the sign which must obscure it when viewing from a drivers position.
Probably placed at twice the recommended height:- http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1233436 They should have used a sign either side of the carriageway and put in a road marking to turn to the right. Mick |
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Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 21:08
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
If you're relying on an attachment from Google Maps, it doesn't make sense to make reference to the Ordinance Survey, so amend ground 2 to refer to the Google Maps website. It also can't hurt to write something about the signage as suggested by stamfordman and Mad Mick V, you should then be good to go.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 21:50
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
I would lead with the signage.
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Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 10:21
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 15 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,420 |
Ground 3: The Road marking and signage in my case was inadequate
My contention is that the “No Left Turn” signage was obstructed on my approach at the junction and this alone was insufficient to inform a diligent motorist that there is a no left turn ahead. The Council should have used a sign on either side of the carriageway and put in a road marking to inform the motorist to turn to the right. Since I was not adequately informed I would argue that the Council has failed in its duty to comply with Reg 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996. |
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Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 12:03
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Normally we'd advise having "The Road marking and signage in my case was inadequate" as ground 1, and the other two as grounds 2 & 3, other than that (and changing the reference from the ordinance survey to google maps) it looks good to go.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 10:48
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 26 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,499 |
Got exact same PCN and just done the appeal would be grateful if anyone could have a look?
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=122115 |
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Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 11:09
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 19 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,820 |
Hi
I received a PCN for the same alleged infringement. The date of the contravention was the 4th September. I'm in the process of disputing it, so drove down Nuttall St again today in order to take a photo of the signage. A NEW SIGN HAS BEEN INSTALLED. In addition to the original No Left Turn sign, there is now another about a metre lower in height and just half a metre from the curb. This might help with any appeals, as it strongly suggests the Council were aware that the original signage was insufficient. Hope this helps. |
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Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 16:00
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 15 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,420 |
I received a rejection notice from Hackney Council today. They argued that the signage conforms to the Traffic signs regulations.
I will post a copy of the letter when I get home. Should I take it to the tribunal? |
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Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 11:26
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I received a rejection notice from Hackney Council today. They argued that the signage conforms to the Traffic signs regulations. I will post a copy of the letter when I get home. Should I take it to the tribunal? You probably should but we need to see the rejection letter. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 11:35
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
I too some pics last week of the new sign that's been added and posted in this thread:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=122272 ------------- I stopped to take a couple of pics today - the new sign has already been knocked around. I don't understand the reason for the no left you can still enter the market coming the other way, and it's only a pedestrian zone on Saturday. |
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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 18:18
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 26 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,499 |
I too some pics last week of the new sign that's been added and posted in this thread: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=122272 ------------- I stopped to take a couple of pics today - the new sign has already been knocked around. I don't understand the reason for the no left you can still enter the market coming the other way, and it's only a pedestrian zone on Saturday. DDI you appeal and outcome? Hi, Did you appeal and outcome? |
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Tue, 29 Jan 2019 - 15:17
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 19 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,820 |
Please see this post for a potential basis for appeal
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1456771 |
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Tue, 29 Jan 2019 - 15:26
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Member No.: 39,245 |
Please see this post for a potential basis for appeal http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1456771 Users come here all the time and post and then don't follow-up. We don't know if they appealed. We don't know if they won or lost. |
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