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Wrong Ticket code #46 but rejected my representation
Pecas
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 19:23
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Hi,
I'm hoping someone can help me with this? I received a PCN from TFL for stopped in a RED ROUTE #46. Their photo evidence taken by CEO clearly show that I'm parked in a one hour( no return for2) bay.
I made a representation stating this and asked them to examine the complete absence of red lines on their photos.
They replied that if I "look at the photos the times are different and show I was there for longer than allowed".
I replied that they should have given me a different ticket, I now know this is a #22.
They have not accepted their error and are forcing me to go to appeal.
Am I missing something ??
Any advice much appreciated.
Thanks

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Pecas
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post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 19:23
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DancingDad
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 19:45
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On a red route the basic restriction is that you cannot stop.
Exemptions are allowed for parking in bays which can include how long for.
If you overstay, you no longer have the exemption and the underlying restriction applies.
Hate to say it especially as TFL could not be bothered to but the contravention is correct.
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Neil B
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 19:46
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Any transgression on a red route is 46.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 19:47
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TFL just doles out stopped where prohibited PCNs for these contraventions so I doubt there is any mileage in the code.

See what others say.
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Pecas
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 20:28
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ok, so I have a ticket for Stopping in a RED ROUTE I'm not on a red route owing to the lack of red lines... or am i ?
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stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 20:32
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It's a parking bay on a red route. Once you exceed the parking conditions it is the same as if it were no stopping red line within the time limits of the bay.

here?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4426213,-0....6384!8i8192

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 20:35
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 21:26
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You have redacted far to much information we need to see dates tiims and locations re post including all of them.

Just because TfL always use 46 does not mean it is correct and an argument might possibly be made that it should be parked for longer than permitted and you at NTO so nothing to lose but lets see the evidence first


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Incandescent
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 21:30
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 20:32) *
It's a parking bay on a red route. Once you exceed the parking conditions it is the same as if it were no stopping red line within the time limits of the bay.

here?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4426213,-0....6384!8i8192

I see the sign, but what defines it as a Red Route if there are no red lines, just the sign itself ? This just seems like a side street without any red lines at all.

Sorry, if I seem thick, but I'm not a Londoner !
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Pecas
post Tue, 12 Jan 2021 - 21:59
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I still believe the code to be wrong and surely the law says the correct code must be applied to the offence otherwise we descend into a free for all.. It's like the wrong date on a search warrant..

Further details of contravention code 46C | nidirect




it clearly says "No observation period shall be applied"

so why are TFL saying I was there for more time than allowed ?

CODE #22 is the right ticket to give me.

many thanks for all your input, much appreciated if not as cut and dried as i first thought..
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 00:07
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I tend to agree and so does the adjudicator in this case

2180331206

Me Weems attended and made representations to me. I have considered all the evidence in this case.

Mr Weems relies on two grounds in this appeal, procedural impropriety and the contravention did not occur. He stated the penalty charge notice issued is not the same as the one in the papers provided to the Tribunal. Both are contained within the papers. The one issued on the street simply states the time as 8.51 of the contravention, the one in the papers states 8.51 to 10.07.

The enforcement authority state this contravention occurred because Mr Weems parked, left and returned within 2 hours which he is not entitled to do so. However the penalty charge notice states the contravention as simply as "Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)".

Taking the penalty charge notice issued to Mr Weems vehicle on the day this clearly can not be an accurate description of the contravention as he is permitted to be at the location for an hour, the time of contravention is listed as 8.51 when in fact this is when the vehicle is first seen by the enforcement officer not when the contravention occurs.

The penalty charge notice in the Tribunal papers can not be considered accurate either. Again the contravention is described in the same way but the times are listed as 8.51 to 10.07. These two facts taken together suggest the contravention was continuous between those times when clearly the case put forward is that Mr Weems left at some point and returned when he was not entitled to.

There is a clear disparity between the penalty charge notice issued and that submitted in evidence. Mr Weems has produced the original penalty charge notice to me today and that is the one I will consider in this case since it should be issued correctly from the outset.

I find there has been a procedural impropriety as there is a clear failure to correctly identify on the penalty charge notice the time of the contravention and the contravention itself, which ought to have been noted as 'Parked longer than permitted'.

Having made that finding I do not need to consider whether the contravention has occurred.

I allow this appeal.


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hcandersen
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 09:42
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Sorry PMB, but this is inapplicable because it is based on a different set of facts.

OP, you asked: I'm not on a red route owing to the lack of red lines... or am i

You then posted a Northern Ireland reference.

I therefore recommend:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes...#on-this-page-0

So, to return to your question: does the absence of red lines mean you are not on a Red Route?

No, it does not.

Why?

Because there are TWO types of parking places on RR, one marked in red, the other in white. Neither carries any internal marking parallel and adjacent to the kerb. You were parked in a white bay - see the above link for an explanation as to the difference conveyed by the colours. Your photo is consistent with you being within a white bay whose conditions of use meant that once you had exceeded the exemption period the underlying prohibition applied, in this case 'stopped on a Red Route'.

Anyway, if you're hell-bent on appealing and risking any discount, then carry on. I would caution against this, however.

Of course, you should appeal IF you know you were not there beyond the time permitted.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 10:53
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 11:09
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 09:42) *
Sorry PMB, but this is inapplicable because it is based on a different set of facts.

OP, you asked: I'm not on a red route owing to the lack of red lines... or am i

You then posted a Northern Ireland reference.

I therefore recommend:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes...#on-this-page-0

So, to return to your question: does the absence of red lines mean you are not on a Red Route?

No, it does not.

Why?

Because there are TWO types of parking places on RR, one marked in red, the other in white. Neither carries any internal marking parallel and adjacent to the kerb. You were parked in a white bay - see the above link for an explanation as to the difference conveyed by the colours. Your photo is consistent with you being within a white bay whose conditions of use meant that once you had exceeded the exemption period the underlying prohibition applied, in this case 'stopped on a Red Route'.

Anyway, if you're hell-bent on appealing and risking any discount, then carry on. I would caution against this, however.

Of course, you should appeal IF you know you were not there beyond the time permitted.


As yet ye have not seen the PCN so an assertion like that is unfounded, but it's also wrong the adjudicator said the contravention aught to be parked for longer than permitted. That was a finding on which the decided the appeal be allowed


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hcandersen
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 11:17
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The case involved different facts so simply lifting any comment and seeking to extrapolate this to a different set in order, it would appear, to accommodate the OP's wrongly held conviction strikes me as being risky at best!

But we're a broad church of comments.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 11:25
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 11:17) *
The case involved different facts so simply lifting any comment and seeking to extrapolate this to a different set in order, it would appear, to accommodate the OP's wrongly held conviction strikes me as being risky at best!

But we're a broad church of comments.


All 3 pertinent facts are the same only one time is shown albeit on the NTO

The vehicle was parked longer than permitted (allegedly)

The contravention committed parked longer than permitted could and IMO should be used A parking bay does not stop being a parking bay just because you are there longer than allowed. How could it it is designated by TMO as a parking bay


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DancingDad
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 11:33
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Any decision will be based solely on how an adjudicator views the sometimes conflicting requirements.
You would need to persuade an adjudicator that the Stopped on a Red Route was somehow not understandable or didn't reflect the contravention.
The case PMB posted is an instance where someone managed that.

The first is that any contravention has to reflect the TRO, if it is not a contravention in the TRO, it cannot be enforced. With RR TROs, the only restriction is not stopping, anything else are permissions to park, simple logic says that if the permission is not obeyed then the restriction is the contravention.
No different to a BB holder overstaying their welcome on DYLs, the underlying restriction is the one enforced, they would get an 01 not a 22.

The second is that the PCN must show the contravention so the motorist understands it, which would logically require it to be an overstay.
The trouble with that is that there is no overstay within RR TROs as something that can be enforced.
If I were to get a RR PCN citing I had overstayed I would have no problems in going all the way to adjudication on it.

It is all a little backwards to normal parking orders where permission to park is given and the conditions are the bits enforced, ie, display a P&D, a permit, can only stay within a certain time, no return within, those are the enforceable bits.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 11:49
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+1.

Parking places as such and exempt areas on RR are not the same. Parking places have a separate existence from any other restrictions in a road: they are stand-alone. To quote an example, when a parking place is situated within a CPZ, that zone's restrictions do not exist by default once the place's permitted times expire, they have to be created within the parking place, hence a yellow line AND a separate time plate.

Whereas, a RR 'parking place' is simply an area exempt from the RR restrictions, but with conditions. Breach those conditions and you are subject to the RR.

Anyway, OP it's up to you. You know you were parked for longer than permitted, otherwise your query would have been: I was not in contravention because I was within my permitted time and not it's the wrong contravention, which clearly implies that you overstayed,

If the discount's on offer, I would take it.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 13:25
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 11:49) *
+1.

Parking places as such and exempt areas on RR are not the same. Parking places have a separate existence from any other restrictions in a road: they are stand-alone. To quote an example, when a parking place is situated within a CPZ, that zone's restrictions do not exist by default once the place's permitted times expire, they have to be created within the parking place, hence a yellow line AND a separate time plate.

Whereas, a RR 'parking place' is simply an area exempt from the RR restrictions, but with conditions. Breach those conditions and you are subject to the RR.

Anyway, OP it's up to you. You know you were parked for longer than permitted, otherwise your query would have been: I was not in contravention because I was within my permitted time and not it's the wrong contravention, which clearly implies that you overstayed,

If the discount's on offer, I would take it.


The OP posted a NTO so the discount is gone. I agree that one adjudication does not create a consensus amongst adjudicators and if the discount is re offered it would be the good bet to take it but if not then the point is arguable at adjudication and given the numbers of DNC from TfL if it's no risk it's worth a shot


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DancingDad
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 13:39
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 13:25) *
..........

The OP posted a NTO so the discount is gone. I agree that one adjudication does not create a consensus amongst adjudicators and if the discount is re offered it would be the good bet to take it but if not then the point is arguable at adjudication and given the numbers of DNC from TfL if it's no risk it's worth a shot


Certainly no argument from here that challenging the NTO with a view to an appeal is worth it if no discount available.
But we need to put it forward in a way that hopes to persuade an adjudicator.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 13:50
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What the OP is up against is the bay sign.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4425177,-0....6384!8i8192

The times on the rejection show the stay was longer than the 10 mins grace.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 13:53
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 13:51
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I want to see the PCN and council photos before i think along those lines . OP please post them


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