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FightBack Forums _ Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices _ Failed to update new keeper details, no longer have correct info

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 12:17
Post #1538123

I know this is my fault for being too trusting. rolleyes.gif

Sold my car 28th October to a 'dealer' who paid cash.

Filled in the paperwork, stuck it in an envelope -- and in my naivety trusted him when he said "I can post that on my way through". rolleyes.gif

I offered him a receipt, I didn't get one in return -- so I now have very sketchy information on who he is. rolleyes.gif

(Like I said, I was naive)

Since then I've had a DVLA notification of an untaxed vehicle.

3 x resident permit PCNS from Haringey (two in the same street)

1 x illegal right turn PCN in Enfield

The only information I have is his first name, his partner's name (she paid a deposit into my bank account via Monzo), the rough area he is, and a phone number that he doesn't respond to. (I actually think he's blocked me on whatsapp)


I contacted the DVLA a couple of weeks ago and told them, and am awaiting a confirmation letter in return -- but they said they can only date the change from when they opened the case.


I've contacted all the local authorities and told them, and am awaiting their response.


Is there anything else I can do to get myself out of trouble, apart from giving myself a good telling off? rolleyes.gif

Posted by: DancingDad Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 13:33
Post #1538144

What else have you to evidence the deal?
You mention WhatsApp.... any messages relating?
Texts?
Emails?
Anything?

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 13:42
Post #1538149

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 13:33) *
What else have you to evidence the deal?
You mention WhatsApp.... any messages relating?
Texts?
Emails?
Anything?

Received call from the 27th Oct
A couple of whatsapp messages relating to him finding his way to mine.
An ongoing list of me sending him copies of the tickets and him ignoring them.
Possibly a screen grab of the original ebay advert.

Googling his phone number brings up a completely different person! ohmy.gif

Haven't yet managed to track down his partner using 192.com / google / facebook


Cancelled my road tax DD immediately, but I didn't cancel my car insurance until I had a new car.

Tempted to pay for an affidavit / statutory declaration at the local county court -- but i'd rather not shell out for anything if I can avoid it.

Posted by: Neil B Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 13:56
Post #1538151

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 12:17) *
3 x resident permit PCNS from Haringey (two in the same street)

1 x illegal right turn PCN in Enfield

What have you done with these? Dates?

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 14:58
Post #1538165

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 13:56) *
QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 12:17) *
3 x resident permit PCNS from Haringey (two in the same street)

1 x illegal right turn PCN in Enfield

What have you done with these? Dates?


They range from Nov 1st to Nov 25th

I only received two initial tickets -- one from Haringey and one from Enfield

I sent a challenge saying I was not the keeper, not the owner and did not know who the owner was.

I had an initial response from Haringey asking me to take a photo of the car to prove it wasn't mine -- like WTF? biggrin.gif I ignored it as I've got more important things to worry about.

I've since had 3 more NTK from Haringey, and I've responded to all of those with the same.

Nothing at all from Enfield yet.


Problem is, if you're not the keeper, you have to tell them who the keeper is -- so I just used the online form to repeatedly say "I do not know" in the various text boxes.


I was hoping for a faster response from the DVLA so I could forward a copy of that, which is why I am now considering an affidavit.



Posted by: Neil B Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 15:14
Post #1538168

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 14:58) *
Problem is, if you're not the keeper, you have to tell them who the keeper is

No, you don't.

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 14:58) *
I ignored it as I've got more important things to worry about.

What, like dealing with the bailiffs when they turn up?

What I mean is that you have to keep abreast of these and not miss deadlines, irrespective of what evidence
you have to hand so far.

You're being vague with dates and it now sounds like 5 PCNs.

Compile a list with all relevant dates.

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 17:47
Post #1538216

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 14:58) *
Problem is, if you're not the keeper, you have to tell them who the keeper is

No, you don't.

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 19 Dec 2019 - 14:58) *
I ignored it as I've got more important things to worry about.

What, like dealing with the bailiffs when they turn up?

What I mean is that you have to keep abreast of these and not miss deadlines, irrespective of what evidence
you have to hand so far.

You're being vague with dates and it now sounds like 5 PCNs.


Only with the request to send a photo of a car I don't have -- that was beyond bizarre.

I was expecting / hoping that the DVLA would be a bit quicker than they have been -- meanwhile I have a health issue, other financial issues, work and all sorts of other stuff that is equally pressing.

The road tax letter and the NTKs all arrived this week -- and at my first opportunity (today) I came here.

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 26 Dec 2019 - 00:16
Post #1539100

A quick update.

Yesterday I informed the police of my dilemma -- I wanted it on record in case the car was used in something serious, such as a crime or an accident. They were fine and understanding and I got a Reference Number.

Then I spent an afternoon doing some other detective work -- googled the guy's number, traced it to a Facebook page. Photos on there matched a house in North London at the same location of the tickets. Reverse searched the postcode, and as such I got an address.

Also remembered that I had a copy of the log book from when I applied for a parking permit, and used that to get the document reference number.

Filled in the transfer online, so now, although late, the car has been re-registered -- although I'm a bit unsure about whether he used his real name as it doesn't match the facebook name. But I've told them what I believe to be true.

Knowing that the guy is a crook doesn't help my anxiety levels -- I'm sure my move will get right up his nose, but what would anyone honestly expect?


I'm kinda expecting the DVLA will either fine me for late transfer, or at least want to know why there's been a two month delay -- but I'd rather be facing that than an onslaught of tickets, or potentially something worse.


Tomorrow, I'll start the task of responding to all the PCNs with the information above -- but I'll do it in writing as their online forms don't give me enough scope to explain; if anyone has got any tips on the best way to word this it would be gratefully appreciated.

Posted by: Neil B Thu, 26 Dec 2019 - 09:15
Post #1539111

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 26 Dec 2019 - 00:16) *
I'm kinda expecting the DVLA will either fine me for late transfer, or at least want to know why there's been a two month delay

I doubt it; I think they just generally like to keep records straight and you've now straightened it out.

The tax fine might still stand though.

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 26 Dec 2019 - 00:16) *
Tomorrow, I'll start the task of responding to all the PCNs with the information above -- but I'll do it in writing as their online forms don't give me enough scope to explain; if anyone has got any tips on the best way to word this it would be gratefully appreciated.

I can't think what long winded story you would want to write?
Some of those on-line 'details' boxes might expand as you type?

Isn't it simply,
'I was not thee owner as I sold the vehicle and here's the proof. Due to the new owner failing to register
the vehicle there has been a delay in DVLA records being updated but this has now been resolved.'

Don't go confusing them with a drawn out story of your investigations. It will detract from the core point.


We still don't know exactly where you are in process.

Dates of postal PCNs or NtOs
Representations so far submitted on?
Replies received on?

Posted by: Twistededge Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 12:30
Post #1540348

Thank you.

To be honest it all got a bit overwhelming -- I ended up with 8 tickets! 6 from Haringey and 2 from Enfield, all between the 1st and 15th Nov. This has come at a particularly difficult time in my personal life, hence me not being able to keep up with everything.

I had to sit down, go through, and challenge each one, sending off a copy of the change of ownership receipt individually, using the wording above. I'm just hoping they accept the backdated slip and the details I sent them.

I had previously filled in the online appeal form, saying "I do not know" in all the owner detail slots, so hopefully they'll update the new information.


Meanwhile, the man I sold the car too has tried to call me, on the day I received the "no longer the owner" slip -- I missed the call, but assume this means he's got a log book and is doing his nut! I have a feeling he's going to be trouble, because of information I gleaned from my detective work -- if so I'll be straight onto the police.

Posted by: Neil B Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 15:20
Post #1540390

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 12:30) *
To be honest it all got a bit overwhelming -- I ended up with 8 tickets! 6 from Haringey and 2 from Enfield, all between the 1st and 15th Nov. This has come at a particularly difficult time in my personal life, hence me not being able to keep up with everything.

I had to sit down, go through, and challenge each one, sending off a copy of the change of ownership receipt individually, using the wording above. I'm just hoping they accept the backdated slip and the details I sent them.

It will take away a large part of the stress just to list each PCN for us -

Date
Type of notice (NtO or PCN)
Your responses to date (and dates)
Any other correspondence (and dates)

Posted by: Twistededge Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 01:57
Post #1540519

OK, well I have appealed all of these already -- both online, and in writing. I had NTOs for all of them.

In the written appeal, I included the following:

A copy of the backdated transfer of ownership document from the DVLA.
A personal letter with a short explanation.
The completed appeal form with new keeper details
The police reference number, after I reported it


I'm not expecting more, but I wasn't expecting these either.

HARINGEY - 30/10/19 -- illegal right turn. This one they responded asking me for a photo of my car to prove I didn't own it. I'll come back to this below. rolleyes.gif


HARINGEY - 1/11/19 Parking in a permit zone -- NTO 9/12/2019

HARINGEY - 1/11/19 Parking in a permit zone -- NTO 09/11/2019

HARINGEY - 07/11/2019 Parking in a permit zone -- NTO 15/12/2019

HARINGEY - 13/11/2019 Parking in a permit zone -- NTO 22/12/2019

HARINGEY - 14/11/2019 Parking in a permit zone --- NTO 23/12/2019



ENFIELD - 14/11/2019 -- illegal right turn -- need to find original letter as I can't find the NTO date

There's another Enfield ticket, but I can't find the paperwork at the moment -- going to have another look in the cold light of day.


======================================================


The response to the first one, from Haringey 30/10/19, asked me to send them a photo, which was clearly impossible -- they then sent me an "after careful consideration" rejection letter, and forms to send of to London Tribunals -- filled that in, and told them pretty much everything I've told you, but by the time it goes to hearing I should be able to gather more evidence.

Thinking...

Slip from DVLA
Print out of my google maps location history for that day
Print out of whatsapp conversation
Print out of original Ebay advert
Sworn affidavit if necessary
Police Reference Number

Anyway, I received the email today, with a hearing scheduled for the 6th Feb


I'll upload everything relevant to this one when I'm more awake, including their nonsensical request for a photo.

Posted by: kernow2015 Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 08:45
Post #1540522

Is there a possibility that the car will end up being clamped for unpaid PCNs? I know our local council have a policy at their discretion that after XXX unpaid PCNs the car may be clamped.

At least then the guy can't rack up any more.

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 12:19
Post #1540538

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 01:57) *
HARINGEY - 1/11/19 Parking in a permit zone -- NTO 09/11/2019

I guess that's just a typo - 9/12/2019?


QUOTE (Twistededge @ Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 01:57) *
ENFIELD - 14/11/2019 -- illegal right turn -- need to find original letter as I can't find the NTO date

There's another Enfield ticket, but I can't find the paperwork at the moment -- going to have another look in the cold light of day.

This is one that worries me.
Have you responded to Enfield at all?
The original "letter" is a postal PCN and that IS the NtO.

Posted by: Twistededge Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 12:51
Post #1540541

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 12:19) *
QUOTE (Twistededge @ Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 01:57) *
HARINGEY - 1/11/19 Parking in a permit zone -- NTO 09/11/2019

I guess that's just a typo - 9/12/2019?
Yes, December, my mistake

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 01:57) *
ENFIELD - 14/11/2019 -- illegal right turn -- need to find original letter as I can't find the NTO date

There's another Enfield ticket, but I can't find the paperwork at the moment -- going to have another look in the cold light of day.
This is one that worries me.
Have you responded to Enfield at all?
The original "letter" is a postal PCN and that IS the NtO.


The appeal form was on the back of the single page letter; I appealed online in a similar vein to Haringey, and then filled in the rear of the NTO, and sent it back with a covering letter, also as above.

The online appeal was a bit more user-friendly than Haringey's, thus allowing me to say "I don't know" a little bit more easily.

I'm pretty sure I photographed the details before I sent them off, but right now can't find them.


The only response, beyond any NTO, for any ticket from either borough, has been the one from Haringey (30/10) that is potentially going to tribunal.




QUOTE (kernow2015 @ Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 08:45) *
Is there a possibility that the car will end up being clamped for unpaid PCNs? I know our local council have a policy at their discretion that after XXX unpaid PCNs the car may be clamped.

At least then the guy can't rack up any more.


I thought it was just bailiffs who clamped cars?

The car is, to the best of my knowledge, now registered to the correct address -- I have reason to believe that, with £1000+ worth of tickets, he will be mightily ****** off, and because my address is on the V5, I've upped my home security a little. Of course, it might not come to this, but I'm erring on the side of caution as 1. he was bloody huge, and 2. information gleaned from social media suggests the potential for trouble.

Posted by: Neil B Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 12:58
Post #1540544

Ok, all good.
Given the earlier date of that one perhaps it would be prudent to check the current status - online?

And, sorry to be a pain but have you missed one of the Enfield PCNs from the list?

Posted by: Twistededge Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 13:33
Post #1540547

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 12:58) *
Ok, all good.
Given the earlier date of that one perhaps it would be prudent to check the current status - online?


The online form says "this can no longer be challenged" but the payment gateway is allowing me to proceed. I assume from that it's still active.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 5 Jan 2020 - 12:58) *
And, sorry to be a pain but have you missed one of the Enfield PCNs from the list?

You're not being a pain at all -- I appreciate and thank you for the help and apologise for my vagueness. I'm not usually this flaky, but as I said, other important stuff going on that's kept me more than preoccupied. I also expected the DVLA to write back, confirming everything sooner than they did -- waiting around for the evidence was instrumental in my slow action.


There are two from Enfield, but I cannot find the date of the second one -- definitely within the first couple of weeks of November. I have a feeling that I only responded to this by letter, as there's no record in my email history.

Another busy day, but will look more later.


Posted by: Twistededge Tue, 7 Jan 2020 - 16:37
Post #1541121

I can't find my copies of the Enfield tickets - This is entirely my fault -- I've become swamped with paperwork and got myself into all kinds of a mental state over it. rolleyes.gif


Right now, however, I think it's more important to focus on the one that seems to be going all the way -- I've heard nothing back from any of the others, so unless the postman suddenly deluges me, they're not urgent priority.

I've noticed something interesting...

ALLEGED CONTRAVENTION, HARINGEY - 30/10/19 --this is the first letter of rejection (I appealed to the NTO online stating simply that I do not own the car, and I do not know who the owner is.)




i've circled the bit asking for a photo of my car, because that was the only option they offered (short of paying) and as such I did not know how to answer, or how to send them a photo of a car I don't own -- in all honesty, I was hoping the DVLA would hurry up and send me confirmation in time, which never happened.

A couple of weeks later (can't remember when) I got this -- which also included the tribunal request paperwork:



If you look at the above, the letter is dated the day before the original -- the date is wrong! It says it's been sent out a day before the original rejection notice! huh.gif


I already sent off the tribunal request, and they have given me a date for Feb 6th, but I believe I can send off more evidence ahead of this.

Posted by: Neil B Tue, 7 Jan 2020 - 17:10
Post #1541125

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Tue, 7 Jan 2020 - 16:37) *
I can't find my copies of the Enfield tickets - This is entirely my fault -- I've become swamped with paperwork and got myself into all kinds of a mental state over it. rolleyes.gif

This is why I got you to write the list. Surely that makes it easier to track.

For the missing Enfield ones I suggest you contact them to see if you can establish the current position -
- and get the PCN numbers - unless you have them?

Posted by: Twistededge Tue, 7 Jan 2020 - 21:53
Post #1541183

Yup, there's one from Enfield that I don't know the date (2 in total). I sent off all the appeals on NYE, so will give them a few days to see what's happening. Interestingly, the Enfield Website seems to let me log in and repeat the appeal process, unlike Haringey.

Posted by: Twistededge Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 18:03
Post #1541395

I received this from Enfield today... In spite of me sending them a printout from the DVLA email.



It relates to the one I couldn't find the details for, and happened on the same day as the first, in the same location, two hours apart.

I didn't cancel my insurance for a few days, knowing full well that I would be buying a new car almost straight away - but I should be able to prove a change of details on the 5th Nov.

No bill of sale --traditionally people give receipts to the new owner of anything we sell, and not the other way around. It wasn't a business transaction, hence no invoice huh.gif

Posted by: Twistededge Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 19:16
Post #1541405

Update - Insurance company have sent me an email confirming insurance for a new car from 5th Nov.

Posted by: Neil B Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 20:11
Post #1541419

and you also now have details of the buyer to offer.

Posted by: Twistededge Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 20:27
Post #1541429

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 20:11) *
and you also now have details of the buyer to offer.

The problem is, I sent that off when I challenged the NTO -- they seem to have ignored it, stating that I was the registered keeper at the time of the contravention, and instead requesting a bill of sale to prove otherwise. huh.gif

So, what I do have...

An email from my insurance company, confirming change on 5th Nov 2019

A print of the ebay advert, posted and cancelled on 28th Oct 2019 (with this "sale has been ended" along the top)

A backdated transfer confirmation from the DVLA -- transfer dated 29th October 2019, with a transaction date of 25th December 2019

My Google maps timeline, proving I wasn't in the area on any of those days -- although this is really tricky to print.

Police Reference number, after I reported it to them.

I don't have evidence of cancelling my road tax direct debit, but may be able to get that from my bank.

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 14:40
Post #1541632

Just to check -- am I right in thinking that, the actual "owner" is legally responsible for paying council tickets, but that isn't necessarily the registered "keeper" -- it's just easier to chase after the keeper? huh.gif

Posted by: Neil B Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 14:50
Post #1541637

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 14:40) *
Just to check -- am I right in thinking that, the actual "owner" is legally responsible for paying council tickets, but that isn't necessarily the registered "keeper" -- it's just easier to chase after the keeper? huh.gif

Yes, exactly that.

The RK is presumed (in law) to be the owner - unless you can show otherwise.

Anything back from DVLA yet?

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 15:08
Post #1541642

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 14:50) *
Anything back from DVLA yet?


Yes, this was the automated printout when I transferred ownership:



I also have the standard confirmation slip, but unfortunately it's dated 25th Dec (Christmas Day)

Posted by: Neil B Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 15:16
Post #1541644

So you'll get the disposal acknowledgement.

I've made a similar mistake myself and, when I eventually sorted it out, the acknowledgement noted
the sale as having been many months previously.

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 15:25
Post #1541646

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 15:16) *
So you'll get the disposal acknowledgement.

I've made a similar mistake myself and, when I eventually sorted it out, the acknowledgement noted
the sale as having been many months previously.

No, I've got that and it says Christmas Day...


Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 15:50
Post #1541653

The CAB have told me to call National Debt Line, and I've thus far been on hold for over two hours -- including a 15 minute conversation to tell me they'll transfer me to an expert!

Just shows the state of this country I guess huh.gif

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 17:42
Post #1541683

So, after three hours on the phone to the National Debt Line (two hours on hold), they seem to believe that, unless I can prove change of ownership, I'm stuffed. :/

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 22:38
Post #1541765

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 17:42) *
So, after three hours on the phone to the National Debt Line (two hours on hold), they seem to believe that, unless I can prove change of ownership, I'm stuffed. :/

They don't know what they're talking about. You've told us you've registered the appeal so it's hard to see by what definition you could be stuffed, the tribunal may well rule in your favour. You certainly seem to have more than enough evidence to allow the adjudicator to rule in your favour.

Posted by: Neil B Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 23:43
Post #1541791

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 22:38) *
QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 9 Jan 2020 - 17:42) *
So, after three hours on the phone to the National Debt Line (two hours on hold), they seem to believe that, unless I can prove change of ownership, I'm stuffed. :/

They don't know what they're talking about. You've told us you've registered the appeal so it's hard to see by what definition you could be stuffed, the tribunal may well rule in your favour. You certainly seem to have more than enough evidence to allow the adjudicator to rule in your favour.

I think so too.

Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 00:23
Post #1541808

Is there any template for preparing further evidence for a tribunal -- like a preferred layout they like to see, and something I can recycle and adapt if I need to attend several of them?


Also, prior to selling my old car, I suffered a bit of a personal setback with my health -- would it be helpful to include details of this in the appeal, or would it just confuse the issue? I'm not a believer in playing the victim card, and don't really want to go into detail on a public form, but it does go some way to explain my lack of togetherness a couple of months back.

Posted by: hcandersen Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 10:24
Post #1541847

"owner”, in relation to a vehicle, means the person by whom the vehicle is kept, which in the case of a vehicle registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22) is presumed (unless the contrary is proved) to be the person in whose name the vehicle is registered;



The 'owner' is not defined by reference to who has title, it is a matter of who keeps the vehicle. Keeping presumes use. Authorities have to hold someone liable and be able to serve notices and the only national record is DVLA's.

Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 11:20
Post #1541873

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 10:24) *
The 'owner' is not defined by reference to who has title, it is a matter of who keeps the vehicle. Keeping presumes use. Authorities have to hold someone liable and be able to serve notices and the only national record is DVLA's.

That's pretty much what National Debtline told me -- thus saying that circumstantial evidence may not be enough. But it does say on the V5 that "this document is not proof of ownership" or something to that effect.

Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 12:07
Post #1541889

My bank are going to send me written confirmation that I cancelled my Road Tax direct debit on the 29th Oct -- so another thing to add to the evidence.

Posted by: Neil B Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 13:02
Post #1541898

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 11:20) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 10:24) *
The 'owner' is not defined by reference to who has title, it is a matter of who keeps the vehicle. Keeping presumes use. Authorities have to hold someone liable and be able to serve notices and the only national record is DVLA's.

That's pretty much what National Debtline told me -- thus saying that circumstantial evidence may not be enough. But it does say on the V5 that "this document is not proof of ownership" or something to that effect.

I don't think HCA's info is negative. You have strong indicators you were not keeping or using the vehicle.

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 00:23) *
Is there any template for preparing further evidence for a tribunal -- like a preferred layout they like to see, and something I can recycle and adapt if I need to attend several of them?

I would start by outlining the story, briefly.

Don't be afraid to address your own failures. The relevant fact is still that you were not the owner at the material time.

To progress beyond that start by making a list of the evidence you have.

--
Once you win the first it's likely the others will fall like dominoes.

Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 13:53
Post #1541916

I've just received the best confirmation thus far...

Although it was late, the DVLA have just confirmed that I was not the keeper on the 29th October. biggrin.gif



Just hope that Enfield and Haringey actually read this, (forever cynical) thus saving everyone involved more effort.




Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 14:03
Post #1541919

I know it's not necessarily over yet, but I am so grateful for everyone taking the time to help me with this.

Posted by: Neil B Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 14:27
Post #1541926

That's more like what I received -- but I had already given them proof they found acceptable.

I suggest you respond to the invitation to give DVLA what evidence you have asap and get the record
fully amended as they appear to offer.

Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 10 Jan 2020 - 14:58
Post #1541935

Does this sound OK as a follow up letter to Enfield?

QUOTE
Dear Sir / Madam,

In response to the letter dated 6th January 2019, I am sending you various documents, demonstrating that I was not the owner of the aforementioned car on the date of the alleged contravention.

I do not have a formal ‘Bill of Sale’ as I am not a motor trader, and this was a cash deal.

However, I do include the following items that prove I was not the owner at the time:

1. A letter from the DVLA confirming change of ownership on the 29th October 2019 – this should now be updated on all records.

2. An email from my insurance company, confirming I changed to a different car on the 5th November 2019

3. A letter from my bank, confirming the cancellation of a road tax direct debit to the DVLA on the 29th October 2019

4. A print out of the ebay advert, posted and cancelled on 28th Oct 2019 (with this "sale has been ended" visible at the top)

5. A print out of my Google Maps GPS timeline from the day of the alleged contravention, showing that I was not in the area at the time.

I have already sent you the police reference number, details of the new keeper and email confirmation of change of ownership -- and as such I should not need to send these again.

Please, I ask that you now desist in pursuing me for this and instead focus on chasing the person who is responsible.

Best regards

Posted by: Twistededge Sat, 11 Jan 2020 - 12:40
Post #1542064

Three letters from Haringey this morning, requesting a letter from the DVLA to update their records -- I'm relieved I have such a letter now, but still distrusting that they'll actually read it.

I'll get everything sent off Monday and keep you all informed.

Posted by: Twistededge Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 20:44
Post #1543042

All the above have now been sent off, but I've had a differently worded letter from Haringey on another one...

What do I do about the part I've highlighted? Something about that request seems wrong. huh.gif


______________

Considering I eventually did the transfer online, nobody signed anything, and I can't get a log book for a car I don't own.

I'm not sure what they're asking for even exists as an obtainable document.

rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Twistededge Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 22:13
Post #1543055

OK, update ... am I thinking they want something that was from the old style of logbook, and hasn't been relevant for a number of years?

Posted by: Neil B Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 22:13
Post #1543056

Is this one that you've previously sent your latest info off for?


Posted by: Twistededge Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 22:19
Post #1543059

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 22:13) *
Is this one that you've previously sent your latest info off for?
No, this is a new one.

I'm expecting two more after this to complete the set!

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 09:28
Post #1543096

Just spoken to the DVLA, and they confirmed what I suspected, that a "signed vehicle registration document declaration showing the new keeper details" is related to old style log books, and something they would not be able to do anyway.


Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 17:00
Post #1543601

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 09:28) *
Just spoken to the DVLA, and they confirmed what I suspected, that a "signed vehicle registration document declaration showing the new keeper details" is related to old style log books, and something they would not be able to do anyway.

So you need to get that in writing.

Posted by: Twistededge Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 03:05
Post #1543875

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 17:00) *
QUOTE (Twistededge @ Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 09:28) *
Just spoken to the DVLA, and they confirmed what I suspected, that a "signed vehicle registration document declaration showing the new keeper details" is related to old style log books, and something they would not be able to do anyway.

So you need to get that in writing.

Already sent off the appeal for this one, so will need to wait to hear back now -- meaning that, if they turn me down on the evidence I've sent (DVLA change of owner letter, confirmation of insurance change, confirmation of road tax cancellation, GPS timeline etc.), then it's all the way to tribunal.

The response from the DVLA though was "the only thing we can send out is confirmation that you changed ownership and when, we don't send out anything else" -- so I don't hold out much hope of them writing to tell me a rundown of the things they don't send.

I guess I should call them again just to ask.

Posted by: Twistededge Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 11:44
Post #1544115

Re. the above, I asked the DVLA again in a web chat and screenshot the entire conversation -- so, another bit of a 'papertrail' while I await the results of Haringey and Enfield's "careful consideration".

DVLA have said they would send another letter and told me "not to worry", but not too sure what else they can give me short of what I already have.

Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 10:06
Post #1546643

I'm winning! biggrin.gif

Slowly ...

Had an email from London Tribunals today confirming that Haringey would not be contesting my appeal -- so that's the first one! biggrin.gif

Had three other letters from Haringey, confirming that they are going to transfer three other tickets. biggrin.gif

Still waiting to hear from Enfield and two more Haringey tickets!

HOWEVER

They've sent one of the Haringey tickets back to me -- basically, I had a letter saying they will transfer the ticket to the new keeper -- and I just received it back through the post, so I might need to start the whole process on that one again! rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Neil B Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 10:22
Post #1546650

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 10:06) *
They've sent one of the Haringey tickets back to me -- basically, I had a letter saying they will transfer the ticket to the new keeper -- and I just received it back through the post, so I might need to start the whole process on that one again! rolleyes.gif

What?

A new PCN relating to a contravention you've already had a PCN for?

and -
QUOTE (Twistededge @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 10:06) *
I had a letter saying they will transfer the ticket to the new keeper

Please try and call notices by their names. Do you mean a Notice of Acceptance?

Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 10:43
Post #1546660

QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 10:22) *
A new PCN relating to a contravention you've already had a PCN for?

Yes, pretty much. I'm going to dig out the original a bit later on, but it's a new PCN for the letter I've pasted below -- so they've claimed to have updated the keeper details, but used my details again!

QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 10:22) *
Please try and call notices by their names. Do you mean a Notice of Acceptance?


This is the letter; I wasn't sure what it was called. (they also got one letter wrong when spelling my first name)



Posted by: Neil B Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 13:09
Post #1546722

and this is what, moving traffic or parking?

They cannot re-issue the PCN to you, only someone else.
They'll cancel easily.

Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 16:28
Post #1546765

QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 13:09) *
and this is what, moving traffic or parking?

They cannot re-issue the PCN to you, only someone else.
They'll cancel easily.

It's for parking in a resident bay -- original PCN was issued on the 1st Nov, with the first NTO dated the 9th Dec. This new NTO is dated 27th Jan -- three days after the letter above.

Shall I just send it back with a copy of the above notice of acceptance?

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 17:54
Post #1546959

Post all the paperwork and leave the PCN / reference numbers in, including the new NTO. If the council has done what I think, this should be quite easy.

Posted by: Twistededge Tue, 25 Feb 2020 - 12:00
Post #1552782

So, as a little update -- Haringey have finally cancelled 5 of the 6 tickets. smile.gif

One of those is the one they tried to re-issue to me.

Based on this, I'm tentatively expecting the last one to also get cancelled, and it's just a matter of waiting for the letter to arrive.


As for Enfield, I haven't heard anything since I submitted all the evidence around 6 weeks ago. I don't know what their communications policy is, but I'm hoping that no news is good news. We shall see...

Posted by: Twistededge Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 14:04
Post #1557470

So, apart from the above, I've had no further communications from anyone about anything.

Considering the last of my appeals were sent off 17th Jan to Enfield (and I've heard nothing from them at all), and 1st Feb for Haringey (still waiting for the final one of theirs), I'm guessing I've probably heard the last of it -- and I don't think anything's been lost in the post.

Would have been nice of them to let me know though rolleyes.gif

Is there a cutoff time when they should stop pursuing?

Posted by: John U.K. Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 15:18
Post #1557490

Have you checked online for the status?

Posted by: Twistededge Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 16:50
Post #1557527

QUOTE (John U.K. @ Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 15:18) *
Have you checked online for the status?

I thought the Enfield ones were still open -- could still log to make a challenge.

But ... when I clicked through to payment (just now) I received the message "there is no outstanding charge for this PCN" (or words to that effect)

I guess that means I'm off the hook for Enfield. biggrin.gif

I can't do the same for Haringey; the payments are outstanding.

But, considering they've cancelled / transferred 5 out of 6, I'm going to tentatively assume I'll be OK (and maybe it was lost in the post).

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 18:22
Post #1557556

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 16:50) *
But, considering they've cancelled / transferred 5 out of 6, I'm going to tentatively assume I'll be OK (and maybe it was lost in the post).

I wouldn't assume anything, you should probably contact the council and check.

Posted by: Incandescent Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 18:31
Post #1557564

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 18:22) *
QUOTE (Twistededge @ Mon, 16 Mar 2020 - 16:50) *
But, considering they've cancelled / transferred 5 out of 6, I'm going to tentatively assume I'll be OK (and maybe it was lost in the post).

I wouldn't assume anything, you should probably contact the council and check.

+1
Never assume anything in this game !

Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 27 Mar 2020 - 13:38
Post #1559568

So, I thought I was out of the woods ...

A debt collector (CCS Collect) has sent me a charge for late payment of road tax -- I telephoned them immediately, sent them a copy of the confirmation letter from the DVLA, but today they've told me (on the phone) that I need to appeal to the DVLA because the records were updated late and the letter was dated January.

Obviously I need to write another letter to the DVLA, but is there anything specific I should include in it?

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 09:14
Post #1559755

Without re-reading the whole thread, why don't you just phone DVLA? If they send you a confirmation letter, they'll have a record of it.

Posted by: Twistededge Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 12:33
Post #1559831

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 09:14) *
Without re-reading the whole thread, why don't you just phone DVLA? If they send you a confirmation letter, they'll have a record of it.

I do have a confirmation letter -- it's been accepted (with other evidence) by all of the authorities.

Except, ironically, the DVLA themselves, who have issued a penalty for non-payment of road tax - via a debt collection agency. rolleyes.gif

The agency have refused to accept the DVLA's own letter, because even though it acknowledges October 29th as the day I changed the keeper, the records weren't updated until december, and the letter was dated January.


The DVLA are pretty much unreachable at the moment, but the instructions on their website are to appeal in writing.

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 21:25
Post #1560030

QUOTE (Twistededge @ Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 12:33) *
The DVLA are pretty much unreachable at the moment, but the instructions on their website are to appeal in writing.

I would take it up directly with DVLA. The debt collection company has no powers and can be safely ignored.

Posted by: Twistededge Thu, 3 Sep 2020 - 10:05
Post #1583895

Hi all,

Well I thought I would be putting this to rest by now, but alas no...

I wrote to the DVLA (as directed above) at the start of lockdown -- informing them that they had already accepted the change of keeper. I appealed properly, explained everything ... and no response.

Did not hear back, until about three weeks ago when the collections agency started pursuing me again.

Contacted the agency by phone, and they told me they hadn't heard anything back from the DVLA and to contact them again.

Contacted DVLA, who told me I needed to appeal in writing (already had done this and was ignored -- stayed patient because of lockdown)

Decided to complain to the DVLA for their handling of this

This is their response to my complaint...


QUOTE
Dear Mr -----
Thank you for your email about enforcement action against you for your
former vehicle, following investigation I must advise it was taken correctly.

I am sorry if you appealed previously and have not received a response, we currently are in
a correspondence backlog situation, due to the social distancing measures and limited
availability of staff on site.

It is the registered keeper’s responsibility to ensure a vehicle is taxed and insured, or a
Statutory off Road Notification (SORN) declared. The Registration Certificate (V5C)
advises this and failure to follow this advice is not considered acceptable mitigation in
enforcement cases.

When the direct debit for this vehicle was not paid you were issued with a Statutory Notice
on 28 November 2019 requesting the outstanding balance of £27.12. When we received
no response or payment, you were issued with a second Statutory Notice on 12 December
2019, advising that you were now required to pay a penalty of £80, as the vehicle remained
untaxed and no SORN had been declared.

While we accept that you have advised us you were no longer the keeper of the vehicle
from 29 October 2019, we were not informed of this until an online change of keeper on 25
December 2019, so you remained responsible for the vehicle

As the case has now been referred to a debt collection agency payment of £80 should be
made to....


Bearing in mind I had informed the DVLA in writing several times (Before lockdown) of what happened, and they had also told me on the phone "not to worry".


At least I'm in the clear with the parking tickets, I guess!

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 3 Sep 2020 - 13:55
Post #1583978

All you can do is write back, and try and put forward a compelling case that you're been a bit naive, are at least in a moral sense a victim of the "dealer" and please would the Secretary of State exercise discretion not to enforce the penalty.

Or you can pay the penalty. Not much else you can do really.

Posted by: Twistededge Fri, 4 Sep 2020 - 11:33
Post #1584153

Thanks.

I replied to the complaint response, pretty much repeating the story again -- I got a reasonably fast reply, telling me they will escalate my complaint to the next level. If that doesn't work then I'll probably pay it just to make it go away.

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 5 Sep 2020 - 11:21
Post #1584263

It's worth persevering with DVLA, as they don't really like prosecuting you unless they have to.

Posted by: Twistededge Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 14:22
Post #1587290

I think this means I've won, finally -- and some token compensation t'boot biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Thank you for your email of 3 September about enforcement action taken against you for your previous vehicle registration number ending XXX. Your complaint is being dealt with at Step 1 of our complaints procedure and I have been asked to reply.

I sympathise with the position you find yourself in and appreciate you are disappointed with the reply you received from our Enforcement Centre. The enforcement case against you is now closed
and you will hear no more on this matter.
I will explain the actions we have taken.

On 31 October 2019, the Direct Debit (DD) mandate for the vehicle’s tax was cancelled. A letter was issued to you on 28 November as the registered keeper of the vehicle. This informed you that the DD had been cancelled and advising that you would need to pay for vehicle tax by another method.

In early December we received your letter dated 28 November confirming the sale of your vehicle. However, it does not appear that this was processed. A second letter was then issued to you on 12 December advising that your vehicle tax was now void as no alternate payment was received. Please accept my apologies for the obvious inconvenience this has caused.

On 25 December we were notified of the new keepers details using our online facility and you were removed as the current keeper. On 8 and 27 January letters were sent to the address we held for you from our Vehicle Casework Unit confirming this.

I understand you are unhappy with the advice you received following your email enquiry to us 21 August. As the vehicle registration number was not given during your initial enquiry (my note: yes, it actually was, but never mind) the reply you received was for general advice.

In recognition of the poor service you have received, I have arranged for a payment of £30 to be sent to you. This should be received within 15 working days.

Yours sincerely


That was a long slow struggle, initially caused by my own unmanageability during a stressful time (unrelated) -- but at least I can now put it behind me.

Thank you so much for your help and patience everyone. smile.gif

Posted by: Incandescent Tue, 22 Sep 2020 - 17:14
Post #1587342

Well done ! A good result, although I think they're being a bit mean with the £30. A £100 would be muchg better, but there you are, never look a gift horse in the mouth.

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 20:47
Post #1587595

This is the council thread, £30 compensation for a stage 1 complaint should be taken like manna from heaven. I'm still trying to get compensation for a PCN case from 2018 and I've only just got to stage 2!

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