Very late PCN for a lease car, 10 months from contravention to notice! |
Helping the motorist get justice 
Helping the motorist get justice
Very late PCN for a lease car, 10 months from contravention to notice! |
 Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 18:22
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 25 Jun 2019 Member No.: 104,463  |
4th PCN received for same offence. First 3 issued summer/autumn last year. 3rd one was issued a few months after the contravention but this 4th one has been issued 10 months after the contravention! (first 3 have been paid off after rejections by council of continuing contravention).
Its a contract hire/lease car so I understand there can be a delay for them to find out who the driver was but 10 months seems excessive and must surely be outside of the limits but I can't seem to find any definitive timelines... |
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Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 18:22
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Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 19:47
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Some actual detail and sight of some docs might get you some replies.
We don't even know what the PCNs were for or which council. -------------------- QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30)  Neil is good at working backwards. |
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Wed, 26 Jun 2019 - 14:43
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
As Neil says, show us all the paperwork, follow the instructions at http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 26 Jun 2019 - 17:36
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 25 Jun 2019 Member No.: 104,463 |
Sorry folks, here's a link to the PCN.
https://imgur.com/a/lLnkpEc Barnet Council prohibited turns from Finchley Rd... |
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Wed, 26 Jun 2019 - 18:58
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
QUOTE (whodoesntlikeavocado @ Tue, 25 Jun 2019 - 19:22) but 10 months seems excessive and must surely be outside of the limits but I can't seem to find any definitive timelines... No. In some circumstances it isn't. So what info do you have from the lease co about what has transpired? -------------------- QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) Neil is good at working backwards. |
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Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 13:50
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The PCN gives the wrong date for service of the charge certificate.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 14:02
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 25 Jun 2019 Member No.: 104,463 |
Lease company said they were contacted about it in May, full correspondence between council and them on the way by email...
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 14:50) The PCN gives the wrong date for service of the charge certificate. Sorry not following, can you expand?? |
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Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 21:17
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The PCN says they can increase the charge if you don't pay or appeal before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the PCN. This is wrong, as for charge certificate purposes the 28 day period starts with the date of service of the PCN, which by law is deemed to be two working days later. The PCN was issued on Thursday 20 June but it was only served on Monday 24 June, so they're cutting the period short by 4 days.
See the decision in Robert Atlas v London Borough of Barnet (2170053479, 24 April 2017) here: http://bit.ly/2KCRlnX -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 23:04
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 25 Jun 2019 Member No.: 104,463 |
Is this mistake enough for the pcn to be cancelled then?
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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 14:55
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
QUOTE (whodoesntlikeavocado @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 00:04) Is this mistake enough for the pcn to be cancelled then? Yes, it got Mr Atlas's PCN cancelled after all. However, the more grounds of challenge we can find the better. The PCN does not specify whether the prohibited turn is a left turn, a right turn or a u-turn (See Austin Biesty v London Borough of Brent (2130412623, 09 October 2013) and Ty Harris v London Borough of Hillingdon (2180443028, 07 December 2018) at http://bit.ly/2POSmZ0 and http://bit.ly/2H1rty7) I've had a look at the video and Barnet's website and there's no evidence of any signage, but a quick search reveals these: https://barnet.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s4...0-%202-8-17.pdf https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2999573 As it's a relatively new restriction, you would need to go and take your own photos of the signage, as the Google Street View images are out of date. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 18:20
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 25 Jun 2019 Member No.: 104,463 |
https://imgur.com/a/XWocACI
Picture taken today by a friend What avout the fact that they've only contacted the lease company in May for a contravention from last year! Could that be due a delayed response from the DVLA? |
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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 19:24
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
QUOTE (whodoesntlikeavocado @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 19:20) What avout the fact that they've only contacted the lease company in May for a contravention from last year! Well yeah but I thought you were waiting to confirm the history. You could ask the council for the case history log. -------------------- QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) Neil is good at working backwards. |
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Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 15:14
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 25 Jun 2019 Member No.: 104,463 |
Case log requested on July 1st nothing received yet. Notice was served 20th June so I'm running out of time. So far all I know is that the leasing company was served on 13th Mau and responded on 29th May. Any more advice please?!
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Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 14:57
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 25 Jun 2019 Member No.: 104,463 |
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Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 16:55
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You have till Sunday to make representations, worse comes to the worse you can ask for the case log as part of the representations.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 05:17
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 25 Jun 2019 Member No.: 104,463 |
So if no case response received by Sunday I will write back stating that
1) I'm still waiting for the case log 2) They have not given the correct date for service of the charge certificate and mention Robert Atlas v London Borough of Barnet (2170053479, 24 April 2017) ? |
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Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 05:45
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#17
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 Member Group: Members Posts: 2,023 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 Member No.: 59,932 |
The wording has been changed since Atlas and is likely to be found to be substantially compliant by more than one adjudicator.
Barnet usually transfer liability without seeing lease documents. I am attaching a transfer on that basis at the tribunal tomorrow. I think we will only get to see everything we need to consider such as the DVLA requests, the Notice to Owner to the lease company & their reply once we reach the stage of Appealing to the tribunal and get the evidence pack. I really fancy this one! The discount has gone so if this was my decision I would make representations now that it is too late to be sent a PCN which therefore exceeds the sum due in the particular circumstances of the case. No point in delaying in my view. Use the online system so that proof is received by email that reps were made in time. Leave the Atlas argument for now. If the PCN is late or if the original one was, nothing else will be needed. This post has been edited by Mr Mustard: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 06:00 -------------------- All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 07:18
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 25 Jun 2019 Member No.: 104,463 |
Will challenge today saying that it is too late to receive the PCN, should I not mention that I am still waiting for the case log?
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Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 11:46
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
It can't hurt to say that if they reject your representations, you want a copy of the case log.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:19
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 25 Jun 2019 Member No.: 104,463 |
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