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Tailgating
Tartarus
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 11:40
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-45545525

Oh, this could be amusing. Ish. The problem I find, I often have to balance the gap to the vehicle in front because leave any sort of gap and someone will change lane into it. And if you pull back slightly to maintain a gap again, someone else moves into it. Ad infinitum. So it's really going to be down to how they enforce on what distances.
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post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 11:40
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The Rookie
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 11:44
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I'm not sure why you jumped to enforce from an article that indicates no enforcement at all, sounds more like an education campaign.


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Redivi
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 12:04
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Used to have a colleague that stuck rigidly to the two-second rule

Every time a car jumped into the gap, he would slow down even more to become an extremely hazardous rolling road block in Lane One

Does Highways England seriously expect drivers to leave 60+m gaps on the average motorway and the length of a football pitch if it's wet ?
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DancingDad
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 12:33
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I find it strange that whenever the subject of distance crops up, whether in tailgating, 2 second rule or simply a safe distance between you and the car in front, someone pipes up that if you leave a gap, someone jumps in it.
Strange cos I don't find that.
It happens occasionally, sometimes with twassocks cutting in too close when no need but generally, I don't have an issue.
And stopping distance is one "rule" that I adhere to, maybe not the full two seconds or the distance in the Highway Code but certainly enough that I have options when the lanes ahead go all over brake lights. Saved me on more then one occasion.
On the subject, target MLOC as much if not more then tailgaters, one feeds the other.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 12:58
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IIRC tailgating became a reason to issue a fixed penalty at the same time as middle lane hogging under the undue care etc offence. I define tailgating a bit differently, not traffic closing up in busy sections (usually at reduced speeds) rather some one aggressively driving to close to intimidate a driver to get them to move over. From what I see think the police are of the same mind


try the A( between Montpellier and Perpignan. its like wacky races 0 to 80 then back to 0 in a pack and if you leave a car length someone pulls into it


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Tartarus
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 13:03
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 12:44) *
I'm not sure why you jumped to enforce from an article that indicates no enforcement at all, sounds more like an education campaign.

True, but people never take any notice whatsoever until you start enforcing matters.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 13:49
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 13:58) *
IIRC tailgating became a reason to issue a fixed penalty at the same time as middle lane hogging under the undue care etc offence. I define tailgating a bit differently, not traffic closing up in busy sections (usually at reduced speeds) rather some one aggressively driving to close to intimidate a driver to get them to move over. From what I see think the police are of the same mind

All that happened was that careless driving/driving without reasonable consideration became a fixed penalty offence. That covers tailgating and “middle lane hogging” as well as a whole host of other things.

Undue care is something else entirely.


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seank
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:32
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I was almost involved in this situation many years ago.
Off to work on the westbound M62, near Castleford. About 7:00am and everyone seemed half asleep and following each other at 75mph, about a car length or two behind each other.
I spotted queueing traffic ahead. I was in lane 3 and left it a bit late with my braking. I gave the following Citroen driver a bit of a shock and he jammed his brakes on, narrowly missing my rear bumper.
Pretty much nobody behind him stopped in time. Every lane was full of mangled cars, smoke and steam. People had swerved lanes and following cars hit them.
Since my car hadn't been touched, off I went when the jam cleared.

Ever since I've considered "just what would you do if the car you're following stopped dead, as if running into a completely stationary vehicle?"
The thought I had before was that my stopping distance would be at least as good as the car in front. Not so when somebody piles into traffic and immediately stops.
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666
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:55
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QUOTE (seank @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:32) *
Ever since I've considered "just what would you do if the car you're following stopped dead, as if running into a completely stationary vehicle?"
The thought I had before was that my stopping distance would be at least as good as the car in front. Not so when somebody piles into traffic and immediately stops.


The answer is that you shouldn't be "following" the car in front, but looking as far ahead as possible while keeping a safe gap in front.

Cars seldom if ever stop dead unless they hit a very large obstruction. These do not normally appear from nowhere, and by looking ahead you should be prepared.

If a 747 drops from the sky the 2-second gap won't save you, which is why the HC says "The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance."

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seank
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 07:18
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QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (seank @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:32) *
Ever since I've considered "just what would you do if the car you're following stopped dead, as if running into a completely stationary vehicle?"
The thought I had before was that my stopping distance would be at least as good as the car in front. Not so when somebody piles into traffic and immediately stops.


The answer is that you shouldn't be "following" the car in front, but looking as far ahead as possible while keeping a safe gap in front.

Cars seldom if ever stop dead unless they hit a very large obstruction. These do not normally appear from nowhere, and by looking ahead you should be prepared.

If a 747 drops from the sky the 2-second gap won't save you, which is why the HC says "The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance."

Really?
Let's just look at that:
At 70mph, thinking distance 70 feet
braking distance 245 feet
overall stopping distance 315 feet.
You reckon every vehicle needs to leave a gap of 315 feet between it and the vehicle in front, at 70mph? 20 car lengths.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 07:35
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Well speaking for him, that’s not what he said AT ALL. It’s what the HC adds as a caveat.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 13:58) *
under the undue care etc

Just as a matter of interest, because it makes me smile whenever someone suggests they are accused of driving with undue care, how do you flip without due care to undue (excessive) care?


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Spandex
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 07:37
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That being said, if you’re going to use your stopping distance, I would think it would be sensible to use your actual stopping distance, rather than the HC one, wouldn’t it?

I really don’t get the concern with people pulling into the gap if you leave one - what’s the problem? They pull in, you ease off slightly for a few seconds to allow them to pull ahead and once the gap has opened again you increase your speed back to what it was. Repeat if necessary. Yes, we can stretch that to a ridiculous ‘logical’ conclusion where you end up driving at 10mph and never get anywhere, but that isn’t what actually happens in real life.

Leaving a gap big enough for other drivers to pull into isn’t a bad thing, it’s a good thing. It’s considerate (an unpupular idea, I know), it’s safer and it makes your life easier because it stops less considerate drivers from diving into tiny gaps in front of you.
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666
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 09:02
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QUOTE (seank @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 08:18) *
QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (seank @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:32) *
Ever since I've considered "just what would you do if the car you're following stopped dead, as if running into a completely stationary vehicle?"
The thought I had before was that my stopping distance would be at least as good as the car in front. Not so when somebody piles into traffic and immediately stops.


The answer is that you shouldn't be "following" the car in front, but looking as far ahead as possible while keeping a safe gap in front.

Cars seldom if ever stop dead unless they hit a very large obstruction. These do not normally appear from nowhere, and by looking ahead you should be prepared.

If a 747 drops from the sky the 2-second gap won't save you, which is why the HC says "The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance."

Really?
Let's just look at that:
At 70mph, thinking distance 70 feet
braking distance 245 feet
overall stopping distance 315 feet.
You reckon every vehicle needs to leave a gap of 315 feet between it and the vehicle in front, at 70mph? 20 car lengths.


If you read my post again, you will see that it's not what I reckon, it's what the Highway Code says.

It's the only safe advice if you want to guard against the (admitttedly unlikely) event of the vehicle in front stopping dead, as suggested by the previous poster.
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DancingDad
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 09:06
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 08:37) *
...........Leaving a gap big enough for other drivers to pull into isn’t a bad thing, it’s a good thing. It’s considerate (an unpupular idea, I know), it’s safer and it makes your life easier because it stops less considerate drivers from diving into tiny gaps in front of you.


Here Here
Fairly typical situation. Usually when in lane 1.
Can see a vehicle ahead that is travelling slower so I want to pull out to overtake.
Lane 2 is bumper to tail, maybe travelling a little faster then me, often not.
But no gap to safely pull out into.

No point sitting in lane 2 cos that is already full of MLOC.
Can no longer hit lane 3 and overtake the lot without risking cameras and chances are Lane 3 is jammed at 65mph headed by a MLOC member who has had the temerity to overtake but is holding the needle dead on 65!
These days my attitude is feck it, sit in lane 1, match speed with the lorry in front, leave a reasonable gap, relax.
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seank
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 09:22
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QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 10:02) *
QUOTE (seank @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 08:18) *
QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (seank @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:32) *
Ever since I've considered "just what would you do if the car you're following stopped dead, as if running into a completely stationary vehicle?"
The thought I had before was that my stopping distance would be at least as good as the car in front. Not so when somebody piles into traffic and immediately stops.


The answer is that you shouldn't be "following" the car in front, but looking as far ahead as possible while keeping a safe gap in front.

Cars seldom if ever stop dead unless they hit a very large obstruction. These do not normally appear from nowhere, and by looking ahead you should be prepared.

If a 747 drops from the sky the 2-second gap won't save you, which is why the HC says "The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance."



If you read my post again, you will see that it's not what I reckon, it's what the Highway Code says.

It's the only safe advice if you want to guard against the (admitttedly unlikely) event of the vehicle in front stopping dead, as suggested by the previous poster.


I was cutting you a little slack. The reality is that, if a 747 drops from the sky (the 2-second gap won't save you, which is why the HC says "The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance.") the safe distance is that which the driver's risk assessment says is safe. Quite nonsensical, since I can only recall 2 times in the past 40 years when an aircraft has plummeted onto a motorway in the UK.
People need to undertake their own risk assessment and decide what is a safe following distance. The trouble is that the average UK driver appears pig-thick. much worse than those you find in Europe, Japan or even the USA. No idea of returning to the normal lane after overtaking, no idea of most road signs, no idea of priority or even how to join motorways.
Volvo soon found their cars were involved in more UK accidents than the indigenous manufacturers, having advertised how safe theirs were.
I maintain that fitting a sharpened steel spike, protruding straight out of the steering wheel and directly pointing at the driver's heart, would immediately improve UK standards.
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666
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 10:36
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QUOTE (seank @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 10:22) *
QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 10:02) *
QUOTE (seank @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 08:18) *
QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (seank @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:32) *
Ever since I've considered "just what would you do if the car you're following stopped dead, as if running into a completely stationary vehicle?"
The thought I had before was that my stopping distance would be at least as good as the car in front. Not so when somebody piles into traffic and immediately stops.


The answer is that you shouldn't be "following" the car in front, but looking as far ahead as possible while keeping a safe gap in front.

Cars seldom if ever stop dead unless they hit a very large obstruction. These do not normally appear from nowhere, and by looking ahead you should be prepared.

If a 747 drops from the sky the 2-second gap won't save you, which is why the HC says "The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance."



If you read my post again, you will see that it's not what I reckon, it's what the Highway Code says.

It's the only safe advice if you want to guard against the (admitttedly unlikely) event of the vehicle in front stopping dead, as suggested by the previous poster.


I was cutting you a little slack. The reality is that, if a 747 drops from the sky (the 2-second gap won't save you, which is why the HC says "The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance.") the safe distance is that which the driver's risk assessment says is safe. Quite nonsensical, since I can only recall 2 times in the past 40 years when an aircraft has plummeted onto a motorway in the UK.
People need to undertake their own risk assessment and decide what is a safe following distance. The trouble is that the average UK driver appears pig-thick. much worse than those you find in Europe, Japan or even the USA. No idea of returning to the normal lane after overtaking, no idea of most road signs, no idea of priority or even how to join motorways.
Volvo soon found their cars were involved in more UK accidents than the indigenous manufacturers, having advertised how safe theirs were.
I maintain that fitting a sharpened steel spike, protruding straight out of the steering wheel and directly pointing at the driver's heart, would immediately improve UK standards.


Dropping aeroplanes are indeed rare, but cars stopping dead are considerably less so. Typically, when a multi-vehicle pile-up has occurred. The following driver should be looking ahead and see this, and be able to start braking in time.

The idea that driver's should carry out a risk assessment is fatally flawed. First, by your own assessment, "the average UK driver appears pig-thick".

Second, whether a distance is safe is not a matter of a driver's opinion. It is subject to a number of factors outside his control (and probably knowledge), not least the laws of physics.

The DVSA recognises this, and provides a simple rule-of-thumb in the two-second rule, with the caveat "The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance."

This post has been edited by 666: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 10:37
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nigelbb
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 10:41
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QUOTE (seank @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 10:22) *
I maintain that fitting a sharpened steel spike, protruding straight out of the steering wheel and directly pointing at the driver's heart, would immediately improve UK standards.

When compulsory seat belts were introduce my old school friend maintained that a garotte style wire round the neck of the driver would provide a greater contribution to road safety.


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bobthesod
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 16:09
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I wish i could find the video to back this up..

My son drives what i would call closer to the car in front than i would. I pointed tht out to him and he said,and showed me ( no cars behind) his stopping distance, saying NOTHING stops dead.
A few day later there was a vis posted up on IIRC pistonheads of a cr following at close quarters and the one in front which suddenly swerved to avoid a stationary vehicle in L3. dashcamman had nowhere to go .IF he had been giving it the 2 sec ,he may well have had time to .

So i drive to the 2 sec ( and a bit more in the wet rule) If those behind dont like it and get up close and personal, i increase my braking distance so a quick blip on the brakes will get them to drop back before i really apply the brakes should i need to stop,or drop speed do to traffic in front.

I might add that this is when i am in a column of moving traffic and there is no possibly way the N cars in front can move over.
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The Slithy Tove
post Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 09:39
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QUOTE (bobthesod @ Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 17:09) *
So i drive to the 2 sec ( and a bit more in the wet rule) If those behind dont like it and get up close and personal, ...

Now I've got used to it, I find the adaptive cruise control in my car useful in such situations. I find its default setting of 2s (I know it's the recommended gap) just looks too big, so I dial it down a notch (about 1.6s). Leaving it to the cruise control helps me in 2 ways:
1. When following a slow-coach (not just motorways, any road), I don't feel as tempted to do the intimidating myself and start tailgating
2. If I am tailgated while following another car, I don't feel intimidated to speed up, I just let the cruise control do its thing.
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roythebus
post Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 12:12
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Being a regular user of the M20/M25 and motorways abroad, abroad drivers do tend to tailgate at what could be called "excessive speeds" but are quite common across the water. But then as others have said, driving standards are generally better abroad and overll speeds a bit higher than here, people are used to driving fast. Lane discipline is usually very good, overtake and get back into lane 1.

I use the motorways here usually early evening and at about 0200 getting back from work and even at those time people drift along without a care in the world in lane 2 or 3 even on an empty road. I usually set the cruise control at a "sensible speed" for the conditions and just continue in lane 1. The MLOC still don't realise as they're too far away with the fairies or using mobile phones. some of the worst offenders are taxi and private hire drivers at that time of the day as nobody else uses the road then.

I wonder, since the change in the law ho many drivers have receive an FPN for "tailgating" or "lane hogging"? Probably the same number that have been done for smoking in the car with kids on board, none.

Oh, BTW, we actually saw a police car on the motorway 2 weeks ago in Essex!!
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