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PCN Fulham - Stopping in a box
daxilic
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 17:38
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At morning rush hour in Fulham, London I was at a set of lights at a t-junction needing to go right (exact location details below). Even when the lights went green I couldn't go right as there was no space to enter the short piece of road after the box, which had another set of lights. I must have been waiting at least 5 minutes to go right and the lights had changed about three times. Due to the way the lights were synced and the heavy traffic it was impossible to go right without stopping in the box and I was holding up a lot of traffic behind me, with cars wanting to go left - which they could have if I wasn't waiting to go right. Because of this a few drivers behind were heavily beeping me and eventually I gave in and joined the road after the box, with my car in the box (not blocking any other traffic). I'm certain that I would have been stuck at the lights holding everyone up behind me for a good 5-10 more minutes.

I suppose to get around this I could have gone left then somewhere down the road turned around to come back on myself, but in London rush hour that probably would have cost me 20 extra minutes which I didn't have, plus I really shouldn't have to do that. Ideally there should be two lanes - one for going left, one for right, but that wasn't the case.

Of course today I receive the PCN for £65 (reduced amount). Have I got any chance of appealing here or was it a case of s**t happens?


Location:

Bagleys Lane where it meets New King's Road

Location on Google Maps




Here's a diagram to show the problem:




The PCN letter:







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post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 17:38
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:56
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If it was me I would most certainly go before an adjudicator and make the argument. From your narrative and the pictures we have seen, it is clear to me at least that this junction creates not alleviates a tailback.

What you did was a contravention if the letter of the traffic laws only are applied. If the common law is applied then different principles come into play. The council never consider these but an adjudicator must.

If what you did seems reasonable to an adjudicator and there is a lawful way to allow an appeal then they will. The council say Nothing doing you stopped in the box because of stationary vehicles, give us your money.
You say there are good lawful reasons this happened. The adjudicator decides.
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daxilic
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 13:26
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I see. Is the procedure for passing this onto an adjudicator simple? As in just expanding on the initial representation and posting it?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 15:56
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:26) *
I see. Is the procedure for passing this onto an adjudicator simple? As in just expanding on the initial representation and posting it?

very simple you can do it online. and it can be decided on the papers. If that is your intention we will help draft additional submissions and guide you in what to send


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daxilic
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 16:39
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 16:56) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:26) *
I see. Is the procedure for passing this onto an adjudicator simple? As in just expanding on the initial representation and posting it?

very simple you can do it online. and it can be decided on the papers. If that is your intention we will help draft additional submissions and guide you in what to send


That's good. Sure why not, I'll go for the adjudicator option cool.gif
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 16:46
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:39) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 16:56) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:26) *
I see. Is the procedure for passing this onto an adjudicator simple? As in just expanding on the initial representation and posting it?

very simple you can do it online. and it can be decided on the papers. If that is your intention we will help draft additional submissions and guide you in what to send


That's good. Sure why not, I'll go for the adjudicator option cool.gif


Ok My sdvise to people in this situation is save the cost of a cup of coffee a week from now until you would have to pay if you lost. You would just about save the difference and if you win have a few quid in your pocket for a treat
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daxilic
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 10:22
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:46) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:39) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 16:56) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:26) *
I see. Is the procedure for passing this onto an adjudicator simple? As in just expanding on the initial representation and posting it?

very simple you can do it online. and it can be decided on the papers. If that is your intention we will help draft additional submissions and guide you in what to send


That's good. Sure why not, I'll go for the adjudicator option cool.gif


Ok My sdvise to people in this situation is save the cost of a cup of coffee a week from now until you would have to pay if you lost. You would just about save the difference and if you win have a few quid in your pocket for a treat


Sounds good to me. My thinking is that the wiser choice is just to pay the £65, especially as they've extended the reduced rate. But I am curious to see how the adjudicator route goes, and of course all this time and effort for all of us would be for nothing if I gave in. How do I proceed now?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:07
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:22) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:46) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:39) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 16:56) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:26) *
I see. Is the procedure for passing this onto an adjudicator simple? As in just expanding on the initial representation and posting it?

very simple you can do it online. and it can be decided on the papers. If that is your intention we will help draft additional submissions and guide you in what to send


That's good. Sure why not, I'll go for the adjudicator option cool.gif


Ok My sdvise to people in this situation is save the cost of a cup of coffee a week from now until you would have to pay if you lost. You would just about save the difference and if you win have a few quid in your pocket for a treat


Sounds good to me. My thinking is that the wiser choice is just to pay the £65, especially as they've extended the reduced rate. But I am curious to see how the adjudicator route goes, and of course all this time and effort for all of us would be for nothing if I gave in. How do I proceed now?


don't rush, but don't let us forger either. I would suggest just registering your appeal on say day 25 so say Friday 6th July Give us time to pull together a few references that can be used to support your case
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 13:13
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 11:28) *
If the council was never going to accept the representation, why would an adjudicator?

The council are hardly going to accept that their yellow box junction is illegal and all PCNs issued under similar circumstances are wrongly issued, and they want your money. The adjudicator is an independent judicial officer holder who's role is to do justice by applying the law to the facts of the case, it's no skin off his nose whether you or the council win or lose.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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daxilic
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 17:33
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 12:07) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 11:22) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:46) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 17:39) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 16:56) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:26) *
I see. Is the procedure for passing this onto an adjudicator simple? As in just expanding on the initial representation and posting it?

very simple you can do it online. and it can be decided on the papers. If that is your intention we will help draft additional submissions and guide you in what to send


That's good. Sure why not, I'll go for the adjudicator option cool.gif


Ok My sdvise to people in this situation is save the cost of a cup of coffee a week from now until you would have to pay if you lost. You would just about save the difference and if you win have a few quid in your pocket for a treat


Sounds good to me. My thinking is that the wiser choice is just to pay the £65, especially as they've extended the reduced rate. But I am curious to see how the adjudicator route goes, and of course all this time and effort for all of us would be for nothing if I gave in. How do I proceed now?


don't rush, but don't let us forger either. I would suggest just registering your appeal on say day 25 so say Friday 6th July Give us time to pull together a few references that can be used to support your case


Cool sounds good, how long will it likely go on for once the appeal is submitted? I need to get this resolved by end of August.
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 17:49
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 18:33) *
Cool sounds good, how long will it likely go on for once the appeal is submitted? I need to get this resolved by end of August.

Is there any particular reason for that?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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daxilic
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 12:09
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 18:33) *
Cool sounds good, how long will it likely go on for once the appeal is submitted? I need to get this resolved by end of August.

Is there any particular reason for that?


I'll be out of the country for up to a year - career break. If this is something that could be dragged out for a months I'd rather just pay the £65 and get it out of the way. If it can be resolved within weeks rather than months I'll still go ahead with the adjudicator.
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cp8759
post Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 18:21
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I can't see it dragging on for that long, but to be honest even if it does, the tribunal does everything by email nowadays so where you are in the world doesn't really matter. However to expedite things you might want to just register the appeal now, the tribunal will then send you an email with a deadline by which you must submit your full grounds of appeal.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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daxilic
post Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 19:29
Post #93


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 19:21) *
I can't see it dragging on for that long, but to be honest even if it does, the tribunal does everything by email nowadays so where you are in the world doesn't really matter. However to expedite things you might want to just register the appeal now, the tribunal will then send you an email with a deadline by which you must submit your full grounds of appeal.


Okay that's good then. I've been to the London Tribunals website to register the appeal but it just takes me through the steps of appealing online via the Appellant portal with the following options:

Create a new appeal
Track or update my appeal
Statutory Registers
Daily hearing lists

I went through the steps and it got to the stage of adding the appeal so I quit it.

This post has been edited by daxilic: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 19:29
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 19:36
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 20:29) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 15 Jun 2018 - 19:21) *
I can't see it dragging on for that long, but to be honest even if it does, the tribunal does everything by email nowadays so where you are in the world doesn't really matter. However to expedite things you might want to just register the appeal now, the tribunal will then send you an email with a deadline by which you must submit your full grounds of appeal.


Okay that's good then. I've been to the London Tribunals website to register the appeal but it just takes me through the steps of appealing online via the Appellant portal with the following options:

Create a new appeal
Track or update my appeal
Statutory Registers
Daily hearing lists

I went through the steps and it got to the stage of adding the appeal so I quit it.


In that box just write full submission to follow enter the ground as penalty exceeds etc
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