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Fine for parking in my own bay
stewiej16
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:09
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Hi all,

First time poster and just want to say I love what you guys do and the free advice you give.

Now for my story.

I live in a group of 3 flats, lets call them Amazon, Google and Apple. We have a private car park as far as I know that is for Amazon and Google flats (I live in the Amazon flats).

I currently pay for parking bay 15 and over the past few months have had to complain due to one Mercedes (who doesn't have a spot) parking there. The reply I got was that all they can do is advise that if someone is checking the area then he would be ticketed. I haven't seen anyone come into that car park to check the area ever.

I left a note for the driver and he now parks in everyone else's spot instead.

I came down the other day to find a parking ticket on my car. I realised that you couldn't see my permit at all and was furious. I appealed immediately and let them know that I have a permit for that bay and sent them pictures with it both in the window and the ticket next to my permit.

They have since rejected this appeal with this reply.

"Thank you for your letter of appeal against the Parking Charge Notice issued under the terms of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.



There are Warning Signs situated on the site that state; Warning, Private Property, vehicles parked in this area must park within a correct marked bay and clearly display a valid PTL authorized permit in the windscreen. Failure to comply will result in the vehicle being issued with a Parking Charge Notice without any notice given. Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you and the Warden we have decided to reject your appeal for the reason below.



As the vehicle was not parked within a correct marked bay, displaying a valid PTL permit in the windscreen, (having checked photographs of when the vehicle was issued with the PCN), you can view the photographic evidence yourself online at www.payptl.co.uk ) as clearly stated on the warning signs, the vehicle was issued with a Parking Charge Notice.



We have considered your reason for appeal but unfortunately the warden must see the permit clearly displayed in the windscreen and the vehicle parked within a correct marked bay on the particular day when inspecting.



We are sorry, but we won’t be accepting your appeal on this occasion as the warden acted accordingly to the signage at the location.



We are not able to consider mitigating circumstances. That an appellant feels he or she had good reason for breaching the terms of parking is not a reason for which we can allow an appeal. When parking on private land, a motorist freely enters into an agreement to abide by the conditions of parking in return for permission to park. It is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that he or she abides by any clearly displayed conditions of parking that are clearly displayed on the signs.



Supreme Court of the United Kingdom – Landmark court decision

On the 4th November 2015, a landmark judgement was handed down in favour of a parking operator who took a motorist to court for non-payment of a parking charge. Further details on the case can be found here - https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc...80-judgment.pdf ). This case was an important “test case” due to the complex legal arguments used by both sides. Therefore, falls outside “The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999” and falls also outside Genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss.



The responsibility to observe and obey parking restrictions is yours and as we operated correctly in this

Instance due to the vehicle being incorrectly parked we will not be accepting your appeal, on this occasion.









You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.



Due to above you appeal is refused, you now have the following options:



1 Pay the PCN at the prevailing price of £60 within 14 days of above date. Please note that after this time the discounted rate will no longer apply, and the Parking Charge Notice will rise to £100.



2 Make an appeal to POPLA-Independent Appeals Service within 28 days by visiting www.popla.co.uk and completing the appeal form online quoting POPLA appeal reference 5960118550. If you prefer to complete your appeal in writing, please contact Parking Ticketing Ltd on 01293 605 915 to request the POPLA appeal forms.





3 Please be advised that if you opt for independent arbitration of your case, the ability to pay the parking charge at the reduced rate of £60 will be at an end, the full charge of £100.00 will be payable should your appeal be unsuccessful. If you opt to pay the parking charge you will be unable to appeal to POPLA. Please visit www.ptlappeals.co.uk/refused-appeals to view other motorists appeals to POPLA against ourselves, that were refused for various appeal reasons, meaning the discounted rate of £60 no longer applied and the PCN was at the original full cost of £100.



4 If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures which will lead to costs being added to the original charge of £100 and we may proceed with Court action against you. Please visit www.ptlappeals.co.uk/county-court to view County Court Judgments where we have been successful in obtaining judgment for non-payment of the PCN costing the defendant at least 3 times the original amount of the original £60 PCN. We do not enter multiple appeals.





Yours sincerely





Appeals Dept.



Pay On-line: www.payptl.co.uk Phone Pay: 0844 848 0814"


Do I have any case at all? I'm just so frustrated that I park there legally and not only did they say they couldn't see my permit but that I was parked in an incorrect bay (which I wasn't). However, that bloody Merc never gets a ticket despite parking in other people's bays with no permit! Also, on the grainy pictures they showed me, they state that I was parked in Google car park, when that car park is both Google and Amazon.

Thank you in advanced and I hope you are all enjoying your weekends!

This post has been edited by stewiej16: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:22
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post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:09
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ostell
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:30
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That Merc probably belongs to the site management!

Does the parking company know who the driver was? A simple yes or no.

Who are you paying the money for the parking? Did you complain the windscreen ticket or the Notice to Keeper that came later? Post up the NTK suitably redacted if you have one. What does your lease/ Rental Agreement say about parking? For that matter what does the agreement for parking say? Does it mention having to display a permit or pay a charge if you don't?

I'm intrigued by them saying it was issued under POFA as that suggests they do not know who the driver was.

What is the actual alleged breach? Post up a photo of the signs.

The mention of the Beavis case is a frightener, it does not apply in residential parking.

I'm looking towards you as the landholder of bay 15 (you pay rent you are the landholder) have not got a contract with the PPC to look after your land and therefore the should not be operating on your land.
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stewiej16
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:38
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:30) *
That Merc probably belongs to the site management!

Does the parking company know who the driver was? A simple yes or no. - No

Who are you paying the money for the parking? - I will have to double check before I say for sure (the missus handles all the paperwork tongue.gif )

Did you complain the windscreen ticket or the Notice to Keeper that came later? Post up the NTK suitably redacted if you have one. What does your lease/ Rental Agreement say about parking? For that matter what does the agreement for parking say? - Again I will double check our paperwork

Does it mention having to display a permit or pay a charge if you don't? - Only a windscreen ticket at the moment.

I'm intrigued by them saying it was issued under POFA as that suggests they do not know who the driver was.

What is the actual alleged breach? Post up a photo of the signs. - On their website the reason for issue is "No Permit" They haven't posed a picture of the signs in the car park so I will have to take one for you later today.

The mention of the Beavis case is a frightener, it does not apply in residential parking.

I'm looking towards you as the landholder of bay 15 (you pay rent you are the landholder) have not got a contract with the PPC to look after your land and therefore the should not be operating on your land.



I've put some answers in for now and will get the others today. Thank you for the quick reply.

P.s - I will also have a chat with the landlord regarding this! A right downer to the weekend ahead sad.gif

This post has been edited by stewiej16: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:40
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ostell
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:48
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If you have a friendly landlord then ask him what his lease actually says about parking. He may have the right to park anyway with no mention of permits or charges.

Did you appeal as the keeper of the car when you appealed to the PPC? Wait for the NTK before you go further.
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stewiej16
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 18:35
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 13:48) *
If you have a friendly landlord then ask him what his lease actually says about parking. He may have the right to park anyway with no mention of permits or charges.

Did you appeal as the keeper of the car when you appealed to the PPC? Wait for the NTK before you go further.


So I haven't received anything further regarding this until today when I got this.

Do I have to bite the bullet and pay??


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Jlc
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 18:39
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QUOTE (stewiej16 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 18:35) *
Do I have to bite the bullet and pay??

How did you conclude that?

Take a step back. You are in your own bay. Please confirm what your lease says on the matter - it is most likely there is no requirement to display a permit.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cabbyman
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 18:41
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Get on to DVLA and ask who accessed your details between [day before PCN] and [day after receipt of letter]. From the look of that letter, providing they have not been made aware of the driver's identity, they probably haven't complied with PoFA and obtained RK's details from DVLA.

SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk


--------------------
Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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Jlc
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 19:06
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Does it matter who was driving and whether they've complied with PoFA if they cannot offer contract on the land?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cabbyman
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 19:14
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I thought the days of single point defences were past?? huh.gif

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 19:14


--------------------
Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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Jlc
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 19:54
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Depends on the wording... wink.gif


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:10
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Your Management Agent was very negligent to employ such a disreputable company that is well known to this Forum
It's run by Mario Ireland who is well known to Trading Standards and the national press
He's a notorious former clamper who turned to aggressive ticketing when the practice was banned
His resignation as a director last year is probably cosmetic - he's done it before

Unusual to see PTL handling the appeal itself
It's previously sub-contracted the process to Parking Awareness Services, a trading name of Debt Recovery Plus, a debt collector

You haven't mentioned an appeal to POPLA
A notable feature of PTL/PAS appeals is that they don't provide the access code for the independent appeal to POPLA

This is a flagrant breach of the British Parking Association Code of Practice
One of the conditions required for a company to rely on the Beavis judgment is that it must comply with the CoP

If PTL hasn't issued the access code, you could complain to the BPA
Personally I would ignore all the correspondence from now on
PTL is very unlikely to take a case of this nature to court and even less likely to succeed

You could in principle tell PTL that you're no longer going to be part of the permit scheme and withdraw implied right of access to your space to inspect the vehicle
Any further parking tickets will be regarded as trespass
His companies are, however, well-practiced at not paying CCJs

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NorthSouth
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:36
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...except that they gave the OP a popla code (OP, you should edit your post to delete the actual popla code in their response)
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Redivi
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 01:08
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My mistake

Although it's officially expired, that code is valid until Wednesday
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stewiej16
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 21:29
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:10) *
Your Management Agent was very negligent to employ such a disreputable company that is well known to this Forum
It's run by Mario Ireland who is well known to Trading Standards and the national press
He's a notorious former clamper who turned to aggressive ticketing when the practice was banned
His resignation as a director last year is probably cosmetic - he's done it before

Unusual to see PTL handling the appeal itself
It's previously sub-contracted the process to Parking Awareness Services, a trading name of Debt Recovery Plus, a debt collector

You haven't mentioned an appeal to POPLA
A notable feature of PTL/PAS appeals is that they don't provide the access code for the independent appeal to POPLA

This is a flagrant breach of the British Parking Association Code of Practice
One of the conditions required for a company to rely on the Beavis judgment is that it must comply with the CoP

If PTL hasn't issued the access code, you could complain to the BPA
Personally I would ignore all the correspondence from now on
PTL is very unlikely to take a case of this nature to court and even less likely to succeed

You could in principle tell PTL that you're no longer going to be part of the permit scheme and withdraw implied right of access to your space to inspect the vehicle
Any further parking tickets will be regarded as trespass
His companies are, however, well-practiced at not paying CCJs


I have received another letter. I've uploaded this below.

Do I continue to ignore? I'm waiting to hear back from my landlord but I have noticed on the back of a pillar in our car park this sign.



I've never seen it before but can't be sure if it's a recent addition.

Here is the new letter.




Does this change things? Sorry to ask so many questions and I really do appreciate the help!

I really really don't want to pay these guys for parking in my own space sad.gif
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Redivi
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 21:37
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Doesn't change a thing

Debt Recovery Plus is part of the standard letter chain
It's toothless and the best option by far is to ignore the company
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 09:32
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Especially as you could have appealed at POPLA and gotten it killed, but didnt return for 10 days.
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stewiej16
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 12:20
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 09:32) *
Especially as you could have appealed at POPLA and gotten it killed, but didnt return for 10 days.


Oh really? That's frustrating! Unfortunately my partner is on the verge of giving birth and I work long hours so I don't always get the chance to check back at regular intervals sad.gif

I believe I have another letter waiting at home from them according to my partner.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 12:25
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Yes, so you follow the ignore advice. FILE it, but ignore
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stewiej16
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 12:38
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I've attached the new letter. Worrying that I'm going to end up with a big fine but I'll continue to follow the advice, file and ignore.

Again thanks for the help, everyone!



This post has been edited by stewiej16: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 12:39
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 13:09
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We give NO cares about DRP letters
ABsolutely none

DONT CALL IT A !$*& fine! its just an INVOICE. WIth random, made up numbers meant to frighen you.
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