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11 ANPR Tickets just arrived!
OliverJB
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 10:11
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Good morning folks

I just received 11 "Reminder Letters" from APCOA relating to my vehicle being parked at a train station car park for the following dates;

4th & 5th May 2017
8th, 9th & 10th May 2017
12th May 2017
15th, 16th, 17th, 18th & 19th May

They call them reminder letters, but i didn't receive anything previously?

All of them were via the ANPR, but having gone to the site to look, there are no signs anywhere, let alone any terms and conditions!!!

Whoever parked there clearly did so without being made aware there was an ANPR camera there.

Whats the best course of action for this?

Also, not sure if relevant, but this is a lease car...

Thanks

OJB
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post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 10:11
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Jlc
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 16:27
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When POPLA uphold your appeals they cannot pursue them. (Unless they want to breach their own code of practice and the potential wrath of that)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 16:28


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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OliverJB
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 16:34
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 16:27) *
When POPLA uphold your appeals they cannot pursue them. (Unless they want to breach their own code of practice and the potential wrath of that)


So from this chain i feel like I have 2 options for a response to APCOA. 1 option is a letter to them appealing and requesting a POPLA code to appeal, the 2nd being the following letter from Ostell's template;

I am the hirer and keeper of vehicle <<reg number>> and have received your Parking charge Notice <<PCN>>

You have failed to conform to the requirements of schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, section 14 (2) (a) and therefore I, as the keeper, cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver at the time. I have no legal requirements to identify the driver and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that you have removed my details from your records as I have no further liability and to continue would be harassment and vexatious.

Please consider this a request made under the Data Protection Act, which mandates a response within 21 days from the date of this letter as shown above.


What do you think would be the most effective course of action for a first contact back to them?

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ostell
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 16:44
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Send that response to APCOA in the first instance, that's what it's intended for. They may have an "Oh ****" moment and cancel there and then. If it goes further they know it will be expensive for them.
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Jlc
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 16:46
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QUOTE (OliverJB @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 16:34) *
What do you think would be the most effective course of action for a first contact back to them?

They should consider both appeals - personally, I prefer avoiding any ambiguity.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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OliverJB
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 16:47
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 16:44) *
Send that response to APCOA in the first instance, that's what it's intended for. They may have an "Oh ****" moment and cancel there and then. If it goes further they know it will be expensive for them.


Fantastic, thanks Ostell
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Dave65
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 17:02
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If you send anything by letter send 1st class and get a certificate of posting from the PO which is free.
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ostell
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 17:20
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And separate letters for each PCN. Not unknown for them to just action one when there are multiple in an envelope.
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OliverJB
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 09:37
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 17:20) *
And separate letters for each PCN. Not unknown for them to just action one when there are multiple in an envelope.


OK, i now have 11 identical (apart from PCN) letters. All printed, signed and packaged up to go. I will send them from the post office and make sure i get proof of signing.

I don't think this is relevant, but the letters they sent are all dated 3rd Jan, but they only arrived on the 12th meaning they have massively backdated them to give me less time as they have time limits on the terms and conditions of their letter...I don't mention this in the letter, but surely thats not allowed?

I checked everywhere on the envelopes and there was no date to be seen anywhere! Just a pre-paid stamp and an "if undelivered" message on the back.

Very annoying, and really bad practice!
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 09:42
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Proof of POSTING.

NOT signed for! First class, FREE PROOF OF POSTING. Nothing else.

Goog luck proving it, however.
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peterguk
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 09:47
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QUOTE (OliverJB @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 09:37) *
I checked everywhere on the envelopes and there was no date to be seen anywhere! Just a pre-paid stamp and an "if undelivered" message on the back.


Not unusual. Same as about 90% of corporate mail.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 11:56


--------------------
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Jlc
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 09:47
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QUOTE (OliverJB @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 09:37) *
Very annoying, and really bad practice!

It's not unusual. Often letters arrive with 1 or 2 days to take the discounted charge. (Which obviously increases the pressure)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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OliverJB
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 09:47
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 09:42) *
Proof of POSTING.

NOT signed for! First class, FREE PROOF OF POSTING. Nothing else.

Goog luck proving it, however.


Loud and clear.... wink.gif
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Gary Bloke
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 11:54
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If they are using contract law, the £100 charge would not be a genuine pre-estimate of loss (GPEOL). It would therefore be a penalty and consequently would be unenforceable under contract law.
  • In the Supreme Court case of ParkingEye vs Beavis [2015], UKSC 67, the judges ruled that an £85 charge for an overstay of a free parking period did not qualify as a penalty because there was a commercial justification in maintaining a turnover of customers in the shops close to the car park. The £85 charge was also not found to be extravagant or unconscionable.
  • At railway station car parks, the parking is paid-for so there is no commercial justification for the PPC to generate revenue from fines.
  • There are typically no shops served by the station car park, hence no retail commercial justification for charges in excess of a GPEOL (to encourage customer turnover).
  • The £100 charge is extravagant and unconscionable, because it is much higher than the £50 or £70 penalty charges applicable at council-run car parks in the local area.
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Jlc
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 12:15
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It's a nice theory but it's not that simple to escape Beavis.

We don't even know what the breach is yet?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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OliverJB
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:01
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QUOTE (Gary Bloke @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 11:54) *
If they are using contract law, the £100 charge would not be a genuine pre-estimate of loss (GPEOL). It would therefore be a penalty and consequently would be unenforceable under contract law.
  • In the Supreme Court case of ParkingEye vs Beavis [2015], UKSC 67, the judges ruled that an £85 charge for an overstay of a free parking period did not qualify as a penalty because there was a commercial justification in maintaining a turnover of customers in the shops close to the car park. The £85 charge was also not found to be extravagant or unconscionable.
  • At railway station car parks, the parking is paid-for so there is no commercial justification for the PPC to generate revenue from fines.
  • There are typically no shops served by the station car park, hence no retail commercial justification for charges in excess of a GPEOL (to encourage customer turnover).
  • The £100 charge is extravagant and unconscionable, because it is much higher than the £50 or £70 penalty charges applicable at council-run car parks in the local area.


There has been no mention of the infamous Bevis case yet, and i am hoping to avoid it as it appears to cause real confusion!!!

What i DID find out however....is that the hire company have charged me £8 admin fee for every one of these letters they received!!! £88 for them to give my details over to these animals...i feel robbed
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cabbyman
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:06
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QUOTE (OliverJB @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:01) *
What i DID find out however....is that the hire company have charged me £8 admin fee for every one of these letters they received!!! £88 for them to give my details over to these animals...i feel robbed


On what grounds? What do their T&Cs say about processing and passing on third party correspondence?


--------------------
Cabbyman 9 PPCs 0
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OliverJB
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:18
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:06) *
QUOTE (OliverJB @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:01) *
What i DID find out however....is that the hire company have charged me £8 admin fee for every one of these letters they received!!! £88 for them to give my details over to these animals...i feel robbed


On what grounds? What do their T&Cs say about processing and passing on third party correspondence?


It seems like an admin fee, but in their terms and conditions it states;

Alphabet provides the Customer with the opportunity to receive fines and/or penalties digitally at no charge. Hereby third party software may be used facilitating digital payment. Alphabet
shall charge the Customer administrative fees if a fine or penalty has to be forwarded, charged or paid manually. These fees are stated in the Rates Table.


What's weird is that the charges were applied in July last year...and taken by direct debit. On the online portal i have with the lease company they called them "Admin Fee: Fine 8.40
Redirects", but i was never informed by anyone that these fines had even been issued until last week!!!
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cabbyman
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:22
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Exactly!!!! This is not a fine nor a penalty. It is a speculative invoice raised by a commercial entity.

Search for Dennis Basher's posts where you should find a draft to send to the hire company to show them the error of their ways.


--------------------
Cabbyman 9 PPCs 0
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OliverJB
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:32
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:22) *
Exactly!!!! This is not a fine nor a penalty. It is a speculative invoice raised by a commercial entity.

Search for Dennis Basher's posts where you should find a draft to send to the hire company to show them the error of their ways.


I will do a search and see what comes back! Thank you.
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Jlc
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:38
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...although £8 is a heck of lot less than many other companies charge! £30+ is not unheard of.

Even £8 is probably in excess of the actual incurred cost but is probably not far from reality. (Subject to being able to charge for it in the first place that is)

Was the DVLA accessed 11 times too? (I presume so as ANPR tickets)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:37


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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