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Merry Fiddlers Pub Car Park, Epping - CEL issue PCN despite giving number plate upon arrival . . .
Eggster
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:41
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Hello all,

CEL again - this time we parked at the Merry Fiddlers pub which is CEL monitored, but registered the vehicle number plate with the lady behind the bar who entered it on her iPad-type thing & thought no more of it.

However, I've received a PCN demanding the £60/100 as per usual. I can only think that the registration was entered inaccurately - any thoughts or advice on this one please?

Frustrated as I'd hired a car for my parents who live in the USA to visit their haunts in days gone by & CEL strike again!

Offence occurred on 09/12/17
PCN Raised 15/12/17
Letter received from Europcar (vehicle hire company) on 05/01/18.

Many thanks
Tim

This post has been edited by Eggster: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 10:47
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post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:41
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cabbyman
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:42
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Here is my blow by blow thrashing of them:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=107513

Have a good read, draft your initial appeal and post it here for checking.

EDIT your post to avoid identifying the driver. Refer only to 'the driver.' This is crucial.

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:44


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Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:58
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OK, have you receivd your copy of the Notice to Hirer/keeper or are you working to the copy that Europcar?

I would recommend waiting for a copy of the PCN that is actually addressed to you. To remove liability from themselves Europcar have to provide your details as the hirer/keeper to CEL. CEL should then write to you with a notice to hirer. One of the items that should be included with your own PCN are copies of the hire documents that you signed. If they are not included then CEL have no claim against you under POFA. This is condition 14 (2) (a) of POFA .

Another hire car user has currently got them self into a mess by responding to the PCN addressed to the hire company.

You then have the problem that Europcar will charge you a substantial administration charge for dealing with this. Check what your hire contract says about charges for handling fines and penalties. This is not one of those, it is a mere invoice and possibly not covered in their conditions for charging. This can be challenged later.

Post up the Notice to hirer/keeper when you get it, suitably redacted.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 16:05
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Jlc
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 16:11
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CEL struggle with keeper liability at the best of times so I'd be surprised if they get a hire situation right...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Eggster
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 16:13
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Fantastic - thank you both.

ostell - only the Europcar copy, so will wait for my own copy as per your advice.

Will keep you posted.

Again, thank you very much

QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 16:11) *
CEL struggle with keeper liability at the best of times so I'd be surprised if they get a hire situation right...

rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 16:17
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You could check with Europcar that they have responded to the PCN, as they are supposed to. Don't admit to anything though.

THere is a time limit on when it should reach you. You can calculate it from POFA.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 16:23
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ITs even more than the time limit _ NO ppc ever sends the *required* documents through. Meaning they cannot meet the requirements of POFA.
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cabbyman
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 19:54
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 16:17) *
You could check with Europcar that they have responded to the PCN, as they are supposed to.


May I respectfully suggest not, Ostell?

By all means ask Europcar if they have responded, but NOT as they are supposed to. They are supposed to include a copy of the hire agreement. If they are reminded by the hirer that could remove a major appeal point, if CEL know what to do with it! smile.gif


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ostell
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 20:13
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I agree, it came out not clear. Just check that they did respond. Anyway CEL have a limited time to correct and resend, 21 days from receipt of paperwork from europcar.
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Dwaynedouglas
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 09:05
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:42) *
EDIT your post to avoid identifying the driver. Refer only to 'the driver.' This is crucial.


Just in case you missed this OP.


--------------------
I'm not a lawyer or legally trained, my opinion is based on my experience - follow at your own risk.
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Eggster
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 10:50
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:58) *
OK, have you receivd your copy of the Notice to Hirer/keeper or are you working to the copy that Europcar?

I would recommend waiting for a copy of the PCN that is actually addressed to you. To remove liability from themselves Europcar have to provide your details as the hirer/keeper to CEL. CEL should then write to you with a notice to hirer. One of the items that should be included with your own PCN are copies of the hire documents that you signed. If they are not included then CEL have no claim against you under POFA. This is condition 14 (2) (a) of POFA .

Another hire car user has currently got them self into a mess by responding to the PCN addressed to the hire company.

You then have the problem that Europcar will charge you a substantial administration charge for dealing with this. Check what your hire contract says about charges for handling fines and penalties. This is not one of those, it is a mere invoice and possibly not covered in their conditions for charging. This can be challenged later.

Post up the Notice to hirer/keeper when you get it, suitably redacted.


Thank you ostell - guess what's just arrived? That's right . . . a PCN addressed to me & ONLY a PCN addressed to me. Nothing else whatsoever - not even a photograph on this one.

So would you suggest I respond in writing saying they have no claim against me under POFA because the car hire documents that I signed were not included with their PCN? As simple as that?

Again, thank you all so very much.
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ostell
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 11:07
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I just noticed in the first post that relatives in the USA were mentioned. Were they permitted drivers on the hire? Simple yes or no for the time being.

I wish I kept a file of these BOGOFF letters!

I am the hirer and keeper of vehicle xxxxx and have received your Parking charge Notice xxxxxx

You have failed to conform to the requirements of schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, section 14 (2) (a) and therefore I, as the keeper, cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver at the time. I have no legal requirements to identify the driver and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that you have removed my details from your records as I have no further liability and to continue would be harassment and vexatious. Please consider this a request under the Data Protection Act, which mandates a response within 21 days.

Send this at the last possible moment so that they cannot then issue a compliant notice within the time limit.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 11:07
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Eggster
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 14:55
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 11:07) *
I just noticed in the first post that relatives in the USA were mentioned. Were they permitted drivers on the hire? Simple yes or no for the time being.

I wish I kept a file of these BOGOFF letters!

I am the hirer and keeper of vehicle xxxxx and have received your Parking charge Notice xxxxxx

You have failed to conform to the requirements of schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, section 14 (2) (a) and therefore I, as the keeper, cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver at the time. I have no legal requirements to identify the driver and will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again other than to confirm that you have removed my details from your records as I have no further liability and to continue would be harassment and vexatious. Please consider this a request under the Data Protection Act, which mandates a response within 21 days.

Send this at the last possible moment so that they cannot then issue a compliant notice within the time limit.


Yes they were.

Oh you star, thank you. So I must respond in writing within 28 days of date of PCN issue, which is 10/01/18 - noted.

Again, thank you very much indeed biggrin.gif
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ostell
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 15:24
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The other option is to identify, full name and address, your US friends as the driver. That absolves you of any liability. The Parking Companies have not been known to got further than write a letter. Your friend replies with a "Get Lost" so that the PPC knows it's a valid address. They can't continue to court because it's out of jurisdiction.

Try the POFA failure letter first, respond within the time frame they give you. If they continue to give grief then name the driver. . The driver can be named at any time until a court case is started.

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 15:26
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cp8759
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 16:39
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QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 15:24) *
The other option is to identify, full name and address, your US friends as the driver. That absolves you of any liability. The Parking Companies have not been known to got further than write a letter. Your friend replies with a "Get Lost" so that the PPC knows it's a valid address. They can't continue to court because it's out of jurisdiction.

Well (says cp8759 in a sarcastic tone), they could ask the court for permission to serve the claim form out of the jurisdiction...
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ostell
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:23
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 16:39) *
Well (says cp8759 in a sarcastic tone), they could ask the court for permission to serve the claim form out of the jurisdiction...


Doubt it very much.
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cp8759
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:42
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QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 17:23) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 16:39) *
Well (says cp8759 in a sarcastic tone), they could ask the court for permission to serve the claim form out of the jurisdiction...


Doubt it very much.

Yes so do I, hence the sarcastic tone :-)
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Eggster
post Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 13:41
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To confirm - just so I'm 100% certain - I originally received a copy PCN made out to Europcar along with a copy of the hire documentation from Europcar themselves.

I then received an updated PCN from CEL themselves, in my name - which is where we were until this morning when I received an Email from Europcar saying they have transferred liability to myself, & that as per their T&Cs they are at liberty to charge an admin fee of £40. However, if the issuing authority (i.e. CEL) agrees to cancel all charges Europcar 'can review cancelling the administration fee, however in order to consider this they would require written confirmation from the authority to support the notice has been rescinded.' They confirm this is the only way they will review cancelling the fees. Seems a bit strong?

I'll stay with the suggestion of quoting their failure to conform to the requirements of schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 etc., but is there anything I can do about the £40 from Europcar - seems a bit steep?

Many thanks again
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ostell
post Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 14:01
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It is true that they have transferred liability to you by identifying you to CEL. I would wait to argue the £40 when you get the charge cancelled by CEL

So send in that POFA failure to CEL in the first instance. If that fails then send in the keepers identity.

It looks like Europcar are assuming that CEL are an "authority". SOmeone in that office does not understand the finer points of POFA. Get out the T & Cs and see what it actually says about charges. If it mentions fines and penalties then you could write back to them that their T & Cs do not support the £40 charge as what they received is merely an invoice and the parking company cannot, in any way, be considered an authority.

If you paid by credit card you take it up with your card company as an unauthorised charge.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 14:03
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Eggster
post Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 18:47
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Thanks so much - makes perfect sense.

Will do all as advised & let you know the outcome icon_cheers.gif
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