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Euro Car Parks - No first letter
Amit Chaudhary
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 21:22
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Hi Experts

My wife received a letter from Euro Car Parks demanding £75 and advising that "The Driver has failed to pay the notice amount within the time specified. As per the displayed terms and conditions on site the amount due has now increased"

I have downloaded an appeal template from Parking Cowboys but could you please provide guidance on

1. We did not get a notice fixed to the vehicle or a first "Notice to Keeper" send to us (with a discount). Does the BPA AOS Code of Practice requires on operator to provide proof a first notice was sent
2. Should I include a statement in my letter telling them nothing was received in the post

We would appreciate any other guidance you can offer us.
Many thanks

This post has been edited by Amit Chaudhary: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 21:23
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post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 21:22
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 22:17
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QUOTE
I have downloaded an appeal template from Parking Cowboys


Don't bother. That site has out of date info and the template was a bad one saying 'this is not an appeal' or some such rubbish.

Forget the ParkingCowboys website.

Use the template here:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

But I would replace the paragraph that says this:

QUOTE
Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.


and instead say this:

Your Notice to Keeper refers to a 'date of issue' of 27.10.17 and tells me that a PCN/Notice to Driver has already been applied to the windscreen or served by post. If 27.10.17, being the ambiguously-described 'date of issue' is supposed to have been the parking event date, then it appears that Euro Car Parks obtained the DVLA data on day 27 or earlier, despite the fact that of you purport to have firstly served a 'Notice to Driver' and were therefore not entitled to obtain my data until after a full 28 days had passed after any windscreen PCN.

Alternatively, if the purported 'date of issue' is merely the alleged date you 'issued' a postal PCN/Notice to Driver, then I can tell you that no such first notice arrived and I now require you to prove postage and evidence the date you contacted the DVLA for my data under the KADOE system. Further, in describing the 'date of issue' in such a misleading way, you appear to have completely missed the requirement under the POFA 2012, Schedule 4 (para 8 or 9 as applicable) to specify the period of parking:

(2)The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;


As such, you are unable to hold me liable as registered keeper and the PCN should be cancelled.
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Amit Chaudhary
post Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 14:44
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OK my draft

Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

Your Notice to Keeper refers to a 'date of issue' of 27.10.17 and tells me that a PCN/Notice to Driver has already been applied to the windscreen or served by post. If 27.10.17, being the ambiguously-described 'date of issue' is supposed to have been the parking event date, then it appears that Euro Car Parks obtained the DVLA data on day 27 or earlier, despite the fact that of you purport to have firstly served a 'Notice to Driver' and were therefore not entitled to obtain my data until after a full 28 days had passed after any windscreen PCN.

Alternatively, if the purported 'date of issue' is merely the alleged date you 'issued' a postal PCN/Notice to Driver, then I can tell you that no such first notice arrived and I now require you to prove postage and evidence the date you contacted the DVLA for my data under the KADOE system. Further, in describing the 'date of issue' in such a misleading way, you appear to have completely missed the requirement under the POFA 2012, Schedule 4 (para 8 or 9 as applicable) to specify the period of parking:

(2)The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

As such, you are unable to hold me liable as registered keeper and the PCN should be cancelled.

I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,
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SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 23:30
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That's fine, submit online and take a screenshot of the submission acknowledgement page.

At POPLA stage you can adapt any other recent ECP POPLA appeal. Hundreds this year on here, and template points a pre-written in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread for that stage too.
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Amit Chaudhary
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:12
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Predictably the appeal was refused and my point about date of issue ignored. Reasons are below and a POPLA reference number issued.

What are the recommend next steps, look at post #3 in the Newbies sticky for an appeal template - any key pointers?

"Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we have decided to reject your appeal for
the following reasons:
 The car park is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR).
 Cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculate their
length of stay on site.
 When purchasing a pay and display ticket, you must enter the correct vehicle registration
number (VRM) and this information is directed to the camera system.
 I can confirm that no pay and display ticket matching your VRM was purchased at the time of
the terms and conditions.
 The signage is clear, a valid pay and display ticket must be purchased for the full duration of
your stay on the car park.
 I can confirm the parking charge notice was issued correctly and remains payable.
 Any form of parking ticket or ‘notice’ is issued under the law ‘of trespass and Contract Law’. A
driver who is invited (or chooses) to park on private land and use the car parking facilities and
pays a fee/s does so under a contract (signage) with the car park operator. The parking
contract sets out the terms that apply to the parking service, including the price.
 The contract (signage) clearly states the extra charges are that the driver will incur and have
to pay if they decide to break the contract terms − for example, by parking longer than the
time paid for or exceeding the maximum time limit applicable."


This post has been edited by Amit Chaudhary: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:13
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cabbyman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:16
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Draft your 4000+ word POPLA appeal and post here for checking.

Some ideas here:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=107154


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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Amit Chaudhary
post Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 23:51
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 23:30) *
That's fine, submit online and take a screenshot of the submission acknowledgement page.

At POPLA stage you can adapt any other recent ECP POPLA appeal. Hundreds this year on here, and template points a pre-written in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread for that stage too.


Sorry I cannot find the NEWBIES thread, could you please paste a link?
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 19 Jan 2018 - 08:51
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http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163

Third one down.
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Amit Chaudhary
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 00:24
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Thats a great website, thank youl.

I have attached a PDF of my appear, particular keen to get feedback on section 6. it woudl be great if we can get some feedback on the PDF so I can can formally submit

This post has been edited by Amit Chaudhary: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 00:25
Attached File(s)
Attached File  ECP_Hounslow_POPLA_appeal.compressed.pdf ( 280.48K ) Number of downloads: 49
 
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Amit Chaudhary
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 12:46
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is it better to waste the content in this dialog box - 20 pages so I assumed not?
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cabbyman
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 12:59
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I think that's pretty good and will be a winner. If my experience with ECP is anything to go by, they won't offer any evidence at POPLA and you will win by default. It's far too much like hard work and too costly for them to go through your appeal, line by line. They may as well forget you and move on to the next victim.

Section 6 is relevant to their correspondence so, I would say, leave it in.

You have time on your side, I presume, so it would be worthwhile awaiting a few more comments.


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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kommando
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:16
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I would rearrange it so your 100% slam dunker was point no1 ie issue date too late for keeper liability, that saves the accessor from having to read past point 1 before finding in your favour but ECP still have to rebut all the other points if they try to contest.
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Amit Chaudhary
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:41
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QUOTE (kommando @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:16) *
I would rearrange it so your 100% slam dunker was point no1 ie issue date too late for keeper liability


Sorry which point are you referring to here

This post has been edited by Amit Chaudhary: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:42
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kommando
post Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 12:57
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QUOTE
ie issue date too late for keeper liability,


Your Notice to Keeper refers to a 'date of issue' of 27.10.17 and tells me that a PCN/Notice to Driver has already been applied to the windscreen or served by post. If 27.10.17, being the ambiguously-described 'date of issue' is supposed to have been the parking event date, then it appears that Euro Car Parks obtained the DVLA data on day 27 or earlier, despite the fact that of you purport to have firstly served a 'Notice to Driver' and were therefore not entitled to obtain my data until after a full 28 days had passed after any windscreen PCN.
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Amit Chaudhary
post Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 23:58
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Thanks - adding the following text.
-------------------------------------------

1. Improper application to the DVLA for Registered Keeper Details
The “Notice to Keeper” issued by Euro Car Parks on the 23/11/2017 claims a “Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued by post/fixed to your vehicle”. As an ambiguous “Date of Issue” is provided on the right hand side of the Notice to Keeper it is reasonable to assume that Euro Car Parks is stating the PCN was either fixed to my vehicle or sent to my home address on the 27th October 2017.

According to the POFA 2012 Euro Car Parks is not allowed to identify the registered keeper until after the 28th day of issuing a Notice to Driver.

Paragraph 8, section 2 (f) states:

(f)warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges (as specified under paragraph © or (d)) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,
the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

The BPA code of conduct (19.7) states that:

19.7 If prompt payment is made (defined as 14 days from the issue of the parking charge notice) you must offer a reduced payment to reflect your reduced costs in collecting the charge. This reduction in cost must be by at least 40% of the full charge.

The BPA code of conduct (20.11) states that:

20.11 The Notice to Keeper serves three purposes:
• it invites the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charge
• if the keeper was not the driver it invites the keeper to tell you who the driver was, and
• it starts the 28-day time period after which the keeper may become liable to pay the unpaid parking charge.

It is therefore argued that the duration allowed is in violation of the POFA 2012 and the BPA Code of Practice and that Euro Car Parks has wilfully ignored the law and rules it has agreed to in order to obtain registered keeper details from the DVLA under the freedom of information act.
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Amit Chaudhary
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 13:36
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Does this look ok?
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Amit Chaudhary
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 15:50
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We got an email from POPLA advising that ECP had submitted an email - just logged on and indeed that have submitted a detailed 34 page document to refute all of the points made. I have tried to redacted all my personal details

Should I provide comments on this evidence?

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ostell
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 15:59
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Yes you comment on it and refute all the incorrect statements and point out that if they haven't refuted some of yours then it is assumed that they accept them
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Amit Chaudhary
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 16:12
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looking at this it appears they have refuted all of the points in the appeal (post 9)
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mdann52
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 19:40
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QUOTE (Amit Chaudhary @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 16:12) *
looking at this it appears they have refuted all of the points in the appeal (post 9)


You've also left reference numbers in there - may want to have a quick flick through again!
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