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PREMIER PARK MARITIME CAR PARK PARKING CHARGE NOTICE
kernow2017
post Sun, 13 Aug 2017 - 09:53
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Good morning all,

Premier Park have issued a parking notice. The ticket was for two hours the driver arrived back at the vehicle on time but they didn't leave the car park for 20 minutes after ticket expired as they wasn't aware it was an ANPR camera., A letter has been receieved off a lease company saying the driver owes a £100 pound charge or £60 they pays within 14 days. My question is there a case here for the driver or would they be fighting a loosing battle? and better for the driver to pay the £60 quickly? Any Advise would be great as haven't been in contact with them at all yet.

Many Thanks
Kernow

This post has been edited by kernow2017: Sun, 13 Aug 2017 - 13:29
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post Sun, 13 Aug 2017 - 09:53
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 3 Dec 2017 - 14:37
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As they have attached a supposed rejection letter created on 3rd October, can you right click on the document and view the date created/edited?

Sounds like they've created it later...

Not only that, the BPA have completely ignored your complaint about the previous email which told you lies about who could appeal.
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bama
post Sun, 3 Dec 2017 - 14:41
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check out byelaw threads by anon45 - he/she states it much more succinctly than I.

Short version
Byelaws are "statutory control". POPLA does not apply to such areas.
Byelaws have a geographical jurisdiction. I.e. if you are not with the boundary the byelaws do not apply to you.
So they need to know who was driving
AND
they can't use POPLA to transfer any alleged liability to the RK.
Do you see the problem they have with this ?
Byelaws do not have a provision for blackmail a ' pay us some money or we will do you' unlike speeding tickets where FPNs (which are a ' pay us some money or we will do you') are enabled in statute.

Byelaws can only cover what the relevant enabling legislation says they can.
A LOT of byelaws are written very badly (i.e don't really work for parking) and some have provisions which go far outside the enabling legislation. Such provisions are in the opinion of many thus rendered baseless, or "ultra vires".

Byelaws can only be enforced in Mags Court so neither the Authority (Airport/ railway/ harbour) nor the PPC get a penny.



see anon45s excellent posts on this matter

This post has been edited by bama: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 - 14:46


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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kernow2017
post Sun, 3 Dec 2017 - 16:40
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I see what your saying there bama, I just cant seem to find out the boundaries of where this applies and also how to go about putting a case together for this. I noticed that it did state in the bylaws

42. (1) Any person leaving a vehicle in a parking place on harbour premises shall display on that vehicle a ticket issued by the Commissioners authorising the parking of that vehicle during such time as may be specified on that ticket.
2) A person shall not leave a vehicle in a parking place on the harbour premises for longer than the time specified on the ticket issued in respect of that vehicle."
So if it is under bylaws then the driver will be liable for a fine as has committed an offence

65. (1) Any person who contravenes or otherwise fails to comply with any of these bye-laws or any condition, requirement or prohibition imposed by the Harbour Master in the exercise if the powers conferred upon him by these bye-laws shall be guilty of an offence and be liable on summary conviction to a fine -
(a) In respect of an offence under bye-laws 42, 45, 54 and 63A above not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.
(b) in respect of an offence under any other bye-law not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
(2) In any proceedings for an offence under the bye-laws it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove -
(a) that he had a reasonable excuse for his act or failure to act; or
(b) that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of such an offence.
(3) If in any case the defence provided by paragraph (2) above involves the allegation that the commission of the offence was due to act or default of another person, the person charged shall not, without leave of the Court, be entitled to rely on that defence unless, within a period ending seven clear days before the hearing, he has served on the prosecutor written notice giving such information identifying or assisting in the identification of that person as was then in his possession.

Its got to be close as it is near the harbour for sure. Has anyone found a map of the area the bylaws?

I'm going to email BPA to request another POPLA code as the notice of rejection wasn't received.

I also noticed that schoolrunmum I think maybe they realised that they had given false information and decided not to mention it again!! I've got a feeling that PP just made the letter up to send it to BPA once they started investigating.
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 3 Dec 2017 - 17:06
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Could you see the date the supposed 'rejection letter' was created/edited? Seen PPCs do this before, several times, & the attachment was recent.
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ostell
post Sun, 3 Dec 2017 - 20:09
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The whole point of byelaws is that if they do not know who the driver was then they cannot come after the keeper using POFA.
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bama
post Sun, 3 Dec 2017 - 21:48
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QUOTE
SCHEDULE
LIMITS OF JURISDICTION
The limits of jurisdiction within which these Bye-laws apply comprise Falmouth
Harbour being the area defined in section 4 of the Falmouth Harbour Act 1958 as the
harbour, the limits whereof are shown within the black line delineated on the signed
map referred to in that section and include the added limits as defined in the Falmouth
Harbour Revision Order 1985 all of which limits are shown on the annexed map


but no annex.
get one from the harbour authority.
and/or from the Secretary of State.

any of the regulars (you know who you are) have a copy of the map ?

they don't seem to have the byelaws anywhere on their website any more - at least a search within their website came up with nowt except a FAQ.
you have to wonder why they would 'hide' them.....

premier Park did try a small claims (i.e civil case NOT Byelaws) in 2015
As I recall their evidence pack was pants - and tried to use POPLA




--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Robbo223
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 12:37
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Sorry to be a party pooper guys, but the byelaws relate to Falmouth Harbour Commissioners control of Custom House Quay & North Quay car parks, not the one this thread relates to. The reference to 'Maritime' is a nod to the nearby Maritime Museum. This car park has nothing to do with FHC as far as I am aware.

This post has been edited by Robbo223: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 12:37
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Umkomaas
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 13:19
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QUOTE
They have attached to the email a copy of the notice of rejection letter which they "apparently" sent which has my POPLA code on but obviously I'm way past the appeal point? I mean can they prove that they posted the notice of rejection letter?

As well as checking the metadata as suggested by SRM, why not check out the POPLA Code which has just 28 days before expiry. Find its expiry date and work back from that to compare its issue date with the supposed date of their rejection letter.

http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/popla-code-checker/
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kernow2017
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 18:07
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Hi all thanks a lot for your help I have check the attachment schoolrunmum and I can only see the date and time from when I downloaded the attachment from email. I have also just tried the POPLA code checker and it is dated the 3rd oct same as when the supposed letter was sent.
I have emailed BPA requesting another POPLA code and here is the reply

Dear *******,

Thank you for your reply.

BPA – *******

Please be advised our Code does not require letters to be sent via recorded delivery and they do not require proof of postage. In view of this, we cannot obtain proof the letter was sent. It is possible it was sent but not received.

Unfortunately as we are not a regulatory body we cannot force the Operator to re-issue a POPLA code. There has been no breach of our Code of Practice as a POPLA code was sent out to you.

You can speak to POPLA to see if they will accept an appeal late but as POPLA are independent it is not our decision to make.

We are sorry we are unable to assist you on this matter.

Kind regards,
********
AOS Investigations Team




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cabbyman
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 18:14
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QUOTE (kernow2017 @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 18:07) *
our Code


QUOTE (kernow2017 @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 18:07) *
but as POPLA are independent it is not our decision to make.


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 18:25
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cc: david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk



Dear BPA,

You say this:

''There has been no breach of our Code of Practice as a POPLA code was sent out to you.''

But there has been a breach, because it is a fact that no POPLA code was sent to me and it appears to me that the phantom 'rejection letter' was created merely because the BPA were paying lip service to 'investigating' the matter. I understand that you do not require AOS members to use recorded delivery, but you are certainly able to ask your member to show that POPLA code was actually allocated to me, and not to another person who didn't use it. Which is all a rogue firm would need to do.

What checks do you make as a Trade Body with responsibility for auditing these firms, to check POPLA code records actually match the person the AOS member claims they were issued to? Especially after the event, when the 'code' has conveniently expired already. There must be POPLA code records kept showing the allocation of a code and to which case it originally related. The BPA would also (very easily) be able to check the metadata on a letter an AOS member purports was sent in early October - did you take any steps whatsoever to be sure that letter wasn't created last week?

I have copied in the DVLA because the complete lack of even cursory checks by the BPA in these situations, is woeful.

yours faithfully,

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 18:27
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kernow2017
post Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 22:38
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I emailed them today and looks like the BPA are sticking to there guns so looking like I will have to write to Premier Park to try to get a second POPLA code is this likely to happen? Is there any other options any one can think of if there has been any similar cases? What it seems like to me is all Premier park need to do is hold on to the notice of rejection letter until the POPLA code expires then say they have sent it and BPA back them up.


Dear ******

BPA – ******

Thank you for your e-mail, the contents in which have been noted. I have also copied in the DVLA for completeness.

Please be advised as we are not a regulatory body we can only investigate breaches of our Code of Practice. I have investigated your complaint fully and decided based on the evidence that no breach has occurred on this occasion.

Premier Park have provided a copy of the letter sent out to you which also included the POPLA code. I note you state you did not receive this, however, this does not mean there has been a breach of our Code. It is at the discretion of the parking operator whether to re-issue a new POPLA code.

Premier Park have provided us with a copy of the Code to show it has only been allocated to your ticket reference on the correct and applicable date.

On the evidence provided, we do not believe there has been a breach of our Code of Practice and therefore the investigation remains closed.

I am sorry we cannot assist you further with this matter.

Kind regards,
*********
AOS Investigations Team
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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 6 Dec 2017 - 00:16
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QUOTE
I will have to write to Premier Park to try to get a second POPLA code is this likely to happen?


About as likely as Crystal Palace winning the Premier League this season.

QUOTE
What it seems like to me is all Premier park need to do is hold on to the notice of rejection letter until the POPLA code expires then say they have sent it and BPA back them up.


Yep. Seems that way to us as well.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 6 Dec 2017 - 11:08
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Yep, so you write to them and ask for access to ADR, as is your right under the ADR Regulations 2015.
State that it is clear that you did not receive the code until after you chased, by which point it had expired. As there is no charge until the code is used to appeal, there is nothing stopping them issuing a second code. Refusal of this request would be unreasonable, and will be brought to the attention of any court where you will ask the court to order access to ADR.
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kernow2017
post Sun, 10 Dec 2017 - 14:34
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thanks for the advise nosferatu. I've just typed this up to send to Premier Park I think it is worth a try, does anyone think there is anything I need to add or change?

Dear Sir/Madam

Ref : Parking Charge Notice *********

After receiving your first reminder notice I got in contact with BPA to investigate why a POPLA code was not sent to me. Once I got in contact with them and they investigated the case, BPA showed me that a notice of rejection letter was sent on the 3rd October which was not received at my address. Having received the code from BPA through email after it had expired left me with no chance to use it and appeal. I am asking for access to ADR as it is my right under the ADR Regulations 2015. I am requesting that you issue me with a new POPLA code as the first one was never received and now unable to use.




Yours Faithfully
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 10 Dec 2017 - 14:56
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Nothing will make them just cancel, but try this:



QUOTE
Dear Sir/Madam

Ref : Parking Charge Notice *********

After receiving your first reminder notice I got in contact with BPA to investigate why a POPLA code was not sent to me.

Once I got in contact with them and they investigated the case, I note that you suddenly produced a purported 'rejection letter' that you led the BPA to believe was sent on the 3rd October. This is not the case; no letter at that point was received at my address and I note you have kept no proof of posting, so I assert that this was likely to have been created, to stop the BPA from investigating your firm further. If you had sent me a POPLA code, I would have had no reason not to have used it.

The fact is, you issued no POPLA code, and the one on the phantom 'rejection letter' had conveniently already expired, leaving me with no chance to use it and appeal. I am asking for access to ADR and a non-expired POPLA code, as it is my right under the ADR Regulations 2015.

Should you proceed to issue proceedings against me without replying substantively to this letter and complying with your obligations under the pre-action protocol for debt claims, I will apply for an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 7 of the Protocol and 15(b) of the Practice Direction and I will seek a costs order due to your unreasonableness.


Yours Faithfully
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kernow2017
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 10:17
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Hello all,

First off thanks for the wording and information which I have sent to Premier Park before xmas SchoolRunMum.

I haven't heard of received anything from Premier Park since but I think they are just choosing to ignore the letter (or pretending they haven't received it), is it worth writing a follow up or would you advise waiting for them to make a move?

Bit worried there going to send the debt collectors round now thats all!

Thanks
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ManxRed
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 10:52
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Debt Collectors don't 'come round'.

They are not enforcing an actual debt, just an alleged debt. In that respect they have no powers whatsoever, they are not bailiffs with a court order. Its not worth their while to call round, and we've never heard of it ever happening.

They'll just send letters, begging for the money, and trying to scare you by misrepresenting your actual legal position on this.


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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ostell
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 11:40
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I've just read through the thread again to to try and recall what is happening. What doesn't seem to be happening is use being made of a hire car and none of the supporting documentation supplied bt Premier and the fact that the company, as the hirer/keeper, could not have been driving.

Otherwise I would keep quiet and not poke them
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kernow2017
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 14:04
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Actually its looks as though I might of spoke to soon, as speak of the devil a letter arrived in the post today. Its interesting that they haven't mentioned anything about ADR regulations and nothing about issuing a new POPLA code.

Here is the letter http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r616/k...zpsovl3zovw.jpg

So Ostell what your saying is I need to mention the fact that they haven't issued me with all of the relevant documentation for the hire vehicle in the required timeframe? I was going to use that in the POPLA appeal but doesn't look like it will be happening.
So they have also dropped the charge back to the reduced rate of £60 is that a normal "goodwill gesture" of theirs?

Any advise on what to do next would be greatly received.....?


Thats good to hear ManxRed as was feeling pressured to get it sorted before it got to that stage!
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