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Parking Charge Notice NCP
TheSaint
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 09:44
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So, the driver of the car (not me) got a pcn a week or so ago, having read a bit n here and mse I believe I need to wait for a letter from ncp and reply with a form letter asking for an appal code for poppla. Then appeal and ignore everything else.

The details of the incident:

The driver parked and tried to use the pay by phone option. The driver was on the call for sometime but for an unknown reason the transaction would not complete. The driver had no cash so left the car park. The driver was gone for less than an hour. The parking fee would have been about £1
The driver has screen grabs from the phone to prove they tried to pay.

The driver intends to offer to pay the £1 owed when we get a letter from ncp. Their website does not allow us o pay less than their unjustified penalty of £50 which is probably £100 by now.

Thanks
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post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 09:44
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ostell
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 11:25
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Where was this, a railway car park? In England or Wales? A hire car?
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TheSaint
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 14:25
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Regular town centre car park, England. My own car.

Cbeers
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ostell
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 15:59
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OK post up a copy of the NTK, with identifying details removed. Was this received within 14 days of the alleged breach?

You entered the car park, technical problems with their equipment meant the payment was not accepted, and you can show the call logs to prove this, so you declined the contact and left. No liability
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TheSaint
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 22:28
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I haven't had a letter yet, just the ticket on the windscreen. We will be over 14 days this week, but I thought they had upto 60 days to write to me. Will post it when I get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 04:59
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Ostell had missed that this was a windscreen ticket smile.gif

Para 8 of POFA sched 4 is what you need to study. THey MUST get a ticket to you AFTER day 28 but BEFORE day 56.
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TheSaint
post Mon, 21 Aug 2017 - 20:45
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Hi everyone, I now have the NCP PCN letter attached.

I'm considering just ignoring this completely, I don't really fancy having to write a massive long appeal that gets rejected anyway. Thoughts?

wink.gif

By the way I love their wording .... You are required. Lolz.
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 21 Aug 2017 - 21:06
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Aha, another amusingly badly worded NTK from NCP. We've already laughed at one, on MSE:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...27#post73014427

whilst NCP have correctly stated the 28 days timeline, the actual wording about how a keeper is liable/not liable, is seriously flawed and does not match the prescribed warning in 8(2)f of schedule 4, which is silent on 'making representations'. This NTK wrongly tells the keeper that, under the POFA Sch 4, they will be liable 'unless they comply with the above' which is a list of three options. It includes ''making a representation'' as one of the three choices.

So, the keeper just has to ''comply'' by making an appeal, and going by the instructions in that letter, they can reasonably understand they are then not liable.

NCP have muddled one 28 day term (appeal) with a completely different thing (the POFA liability wording) and in doing so, prejudice the registered keeper's understanding about liability. There can be no other interpretation of that NTK than to believe that a keeper can ''comply'' by ''making representations'' within 28 days and therefore, they will then not be liable.

QUOTE
The driver intends to offer to pay the £1 owed when we get a letter from ncp.
No, the driver doesn't contact them, but the keeper does. So make a short appeal not saying who was driving, and ask for a POPLA code. You'd be silly not to bother seeing as the NTK clearly says if you make reps you won't be liable!

These are fun. The first appeal doesn't have to be long, just not saying who parked.
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TheSaint
post Mon, 21 Aug 2017 - 21:12
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Ha! Good shout, I hadn't spotted that. I will send a simple letter as you say.
Cheers
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 22 Aug 2017 - 09:55
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Send a simple letter, refer them to their OWN NtK which states the Keeper is liable unless they did one of the above, and state you are now no longer liable, please go and chase the driver.

Dont contact me further, unless you will give me a POPLA code where POPLA will tell you to cancel.
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TheSaint
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 20:53
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About to send this: Does it look ok?

As per your letter dated 22 Aug 17, I am taking option 3 which is to challenge the parking charge. The letter indicates that if I select to undertake any of the three options I will not be held liable for any charge. I therefore consider the matter closed.
By way of additional information, I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. I am under no obligation to tell you who was driving the vehicle at the time of your ticket and you cannot pursue me for your unlawful fine.
I do not accept that your losses amount to any more than £1 which is the sum of money applicable for a short stay in your car park. Your charge is extortionate and not enforceable.
The driver attempted to pay to park using your phone system. The driver attempted several times to complete the transaction but your system did not respond. The driver has screen shots of the call duration to prove this. The driver had no cash and had received the ticket by the time they returned to the car.
As previously stated I expect the matter to be closed, though I offer to pay the sum of £5 to cover your loses for the time parked and your form letter postage. Please supply bank details and I will transfer the £5.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 10:54
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No no no
No talk about loss
Do t offer anything. That admits some liability.

Don't lead that you don't have liability due to option 3, make the appeal - using the MSE newbies thread blue appeal - first

Then at the end say that, according to their NtK dated x, a keeper is liable unless they perform one of three actions. As you chose option three of three, namely appealing, you no longer have liability. The charge must be cancelled.
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TheSaint
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 19:43
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Ok, done that. Thanks for the advice. I will post when I get the inevitable rejection smile.gif
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TheSaint
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:14
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I just got an email reply from NCP.

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding the above notice number.

Following the introduction of the Protection of Freedoms act 2012 on the 1st October 2012 lobbying by the BPA the Bill introduces a duty on the keeper to identify the driver providing a serviceable address when enquiries are made by the landowner or his agent. Failing this the keeper becomes liable for any parking charges due as a result of the breach of contract or trespass.

Please note, to date you not have provided a serviceable address for the driver of the vehicle, therefore if this is not provided you, as the registered keeper of the vehicle, are liable for the Parking Charge Notice.

In order to transfer the liability for the above mentioned PCN to the driver on the date of event, please provide the drivers name and address within 14 days from the date of this letter.

Payment can be made:

* Online, by visiting https://www.ncp.co.uk/pcn
* By sending a cheque or postal order, made payable to National Car Parks Ltd to: National Car Parks Ltd. Notice Processing, PO Box 839, Northampton, NN4 4AL.
* By Debit or Credit card (except American Express). Please call 0345 452 7780 and have your card details and the information held in this letter to hand.

If payment is not received within 14 days from the date of this letter, the discount offer will expire and the full amount of £100.00 will become due. I have to inform you that if the outstanding amount remains unpaid we will follow a recovery process which includes passing the case over to a debt collector who will seek to recover the outstanding debt on our behalf and any reasonable administration costs incurred by the debt collector. We further reserve the right to use the courts to recover any outstanding parking charges due to us.

Yours sincerely,

Notice Processing Team
National Car Parks

-----

So it looks to me like they have made a number of mistakes.
1. No official appeal number
2. No reference to my having fulfilled liability based on the original letter
3. Pretty sure I don't have to supply the driver details.
4. They say liability is just for parking charges, so could I offer them a pound? wink.gif

Weird that they are giving me another 14 days to get a discount;)
I guess I just ignore everything now.

Does anyone with expertise agree?

Cheers
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cabbyman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:39
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Are you certain that there is not a POPLA code hidden in there anywhere? It's a 10 digit number. Some PPCs hide it so that you don't recognise it and, therefore, don't use it to appeal further.

There is no obligation on you to name the driver. DON'T. The RK is in a very much stronger position than the driver.

Don't offer them anything. That's an admission of liability.



--------------------
Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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Jlc
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:50
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 18:39) *
There is no obligation on you to name the driver. DON'T. The RK is in a very much stronger position than the driver.

If they've complied substantively with PoFA then why is the RK in a stronger position?

QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 18:39) *
Don't offer them anything. That's an admission of liability.

Is it? (Depends how it's done)

The key issue here is the lack of POPLA code. I would remind them of this by return if they are rejecting a keeper appeal.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 17:53


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cabbyman
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 18:08
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SRM didn't think the NtK complied on post #8.

Why risk wrong wording? Safer not offer anything.

Lack of POPLA code is one issue. Why not just complain to BPA? They have failed to comply with CoP.


--------------------
Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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TheSaint
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 18:09
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The only thing I have removed from this email is the top line that says re: Parking charge notification cpxxxxxxxx on date x , so defo no popla code.

So I should reply and ask for the code? I thought I was better off if they don't give it?

Personally I would rather let them get to fake debt threat letters as I can't be bothered wasting time on them, unless you guys think I will be a lot better to do something.
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Jlc
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 18:16
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 19:08) *
SRM didn't think the NtK complied on post #8.

I used substantively - the argument may be lost on POPLA/Court... But we are talking about NCP here... wink.gif

QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 19:08) *
Why risk wrong wording? Safer not offer anything.

Probably, but a 'without prejudice' offer imho puts anyone in a good position under certain circumstances, notwithstanding the likelihood of this being inside a court...!

QUOTE (TheSaint @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 19:09) *
So I should reply and ask for the code? I thought I was better off if they don't give it?

Personally I would rather let them get to fake debt threat letters as I can't be bothered wasting time on them, unless you guys think I will be a lot better to do something.

It appears to be a breach of the Code of Practice. Getting the BPA involved will likely see a code.

You either ignore it now and the subsequent toilet paper (but keep) or remind them that a POPLA code must be supplied... It's generally advised to kill it at POPLA but they may not agree with the argument about liability. But if SRM's angle does work at POPLA then that's definitely the route.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 18:19


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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TheSaint
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 21:03
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Just posted this on email submission:

Following on from your recent email of the 13th September. Without prejudice I am willing to offer £5 to cover the cost of the few minutes the car was parked where the driver was unable to pay using your automated phone system.

Acceptance of this offer will close the matter.
If you reject you have 14 days to supply a POPLA code or the matter will be considered closed.

Regards,
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