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UK CPM - Visitor parking PCN
DragonQ
post Mon, 20 Mar 2017 - 18:12
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My car was parked in a visitor's bay in my residential parking area. One morning I woke up to find a Parking Charge Notice attached to it from UK CPM, who have some signs up around the car park. The issue reason is not displaying a valid parking permit. I have a visitor's permit that is in the car but I am not sure how visible it was on this occasion.

UK CPM are a part of IPC, although the sign says they are a BPA member. I have two questions:

- Am I right in thinking that I needn't do anything until I receive a Notice to Keeper through the post?
- Is there any point contacting my management company to ask for the charge to be cleared (since it's designed to stop people who don't live here or aren't visiting using the bays, not to catch people who live here out), or are they likely to just refer me to UK CPM?

I've attached a redacted copy of the PCN and also a photo of the signs up around the area. I've had a quick look through the contract I signed with the management company when buying the property, as well as their "welcome pack", and can't see any mention of parking whatsoever.
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post Mon, 20 Mar 2017 - 18:12
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Lynnzer
post Fri, 26 May 2017 - 09:12
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QUOTE (DragonQ @ Fri, 26 May 2017 - 10:07) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 26 May 2017 - 08:50) *
It isn't premature to enforce your leased rights.

I agree but the letter is centred around including the management agent in a threatened court case, which hasn't (yet) happened. I can say that I intend to add them as a party if UK CPM try to take me to court and then cut out the irrelevant parts of the letter though.

P.S. I own the property, I don't rent it.

The earlier you get both the managing agent and the landowner/lessor into this the better.
Tell them to get this nonsense taken care of and put them on notice of a joint action for damages.
Also warn them any further ticketing on you car will be considered a derogation of grant with similar action taken.


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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 26 May 2017 - 10:56
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QUOTE (DragonQ @ Fri, 26 May 2017 - 10:07) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 26 May 2017 - 08:50) *
It isnt prematrure to enforce your leased rights.

I agree but the letter is centred around including the management agent in a threatened court case, which hasn't (yet) happened. I can say that I intend to add them as a party if UK CPM try to take me to court and then cut out the irrelevent parts of the letter though.

P.S. I own the property, I don't rent it.

Do you have freehold title to the parking space? If not, do you have a leasehold interest in the space?
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Lynnzer
post Fri, 26 May 2017 - 11:15
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 26 May 2017 - 11:56) *
QUOTE (DragonQ @ Fri, 26 May 2017 - 10:07) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 26 May 2017 - 08:50) *
It isnt prematrure to enforce your leased rights.

I agree but the letter is centred around including the management agent in a threatened court case, which hasn't (yet) happened. I can say that I intend to add them as a party if UK CPM try to take me to court and then cut out the irrelevent parts of the letter though.

P.S. I own the property, I don't rent it.

Do you have freehold title to the parking space? If not, do you have a leasehold interest in the space?

The OP says the lease provides for this "The right...to the use in common with all others entitled to a like right on a first come first served basis any visitors parking space in the vicinity of the property for the temporary parking of private motor vehicles."

In any case UKCPM WILL NOT know who has rights of any sort on any space. They don't have a list of "visitor" cars; permit or no permit, and it would be entirely unable to say that the OP had no rights to use it.
Do you have to display a permit in your own allocated bay?


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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 26 May 2017 - 12:09
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I was more making te point that you still have leased rights, even though you own the space, because you dont own the freehold to that space.
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DragonQ
post Fri, 26 May 2017 - 16:57
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Fri, 26 May 2017 - 12:15) *
Do you have to display a permit in your own allocated bay?

According to UK CPM, yes. Again, nothing in the deeds about it though. It just says:

QUOTE
The right...to the exclusive use of the parking space comprised within the Management Land and numbered with the plot number relating to the property.


This post has been edited by DragonQ: Fri, 26 May 2017 - 19:54
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 26 May 2017 - 21:31
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UKCPM have no right to vary your lease.
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Lynnzer
post Fri, 26 May 2017 - 21:44
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More to the point, you weren't ticketed for using the visitors bay then. You were done for not displaying a permit and they haven't a clue who has rights to any bay.

You can defend this on the presumption of them ticketing you in your allocated bay but with the overrider that in any case, you had rights to the use of any visitor bay too as part of your lease.

Start off now by sending a letter to the managing agent and the landowner/lessor and tell them you want this damn thing sorted or they will be named as joint parties to a claim for derogation of grant.

Then do the one to UKCPM for the damages claim for breach of the DPA.
I take it you saw this?


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DragonQ
post Fri, 26 May 2017 - 22:28
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Fri, 26 May 2017 - 22:44) *
More to the point, you weren't ticketed for using the visitors bay then. You were done for not displaying a permit and they haven't a clue who has rights to any bay.

You can defend this on the presumption of them ticketing you in your allocated bay but with the overrider that in any case, you had rights to the use of any visitor bay too as part of your lease.

Start off now by sending a letter to the managing agent and the landowner/lessor and tell them you want this damn thing sorted or they will be named as joint parties to a claim for derogation of grant.

Then do the one to UKCPM for the damages claim for breach of the DPA.
I take it you saw this?

This thread is getting way too confusing. It feels like people are just popping in saying stuff without reading the thread. Let me clarify a few things:

1) I own a property. It comes with an allocated parking space. However, my own allocated parking space is irrelevant: UK CPM are charging me because my car was parked in a visitor bay without a permit being displayed (so they claim). Their photos show the visitor bay marking.
2) I sent an email to the management agent upon seeing the ticket on my car. I demanded that they contact UK CPM and cancel the charge. They have not replied.
3) I received the NTK. I replied to the NTK using the template here.
4) I received a reply from UK CPM to my letter, basically saying that I don't own the space and I was aware of the conditions of having to display a permit due to the signs (see this post).
5) I plan to send a second email to the management agent.
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ostell
post Sat, 27 May 2017 - 06:31
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1) You have the right to park given in you lease. The "Charge" was for failing to display a permit. Where in your lease, which takes priority, does it say you have to display a permit?
2) & 5) hassle the managing agent again
4) See 1)
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Lynnzer
post Sat, 27 May 2017 - 07:14
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 27 May 2017 - 07:31) *
1) You have the right to park given in you lease. The "Charge" was for failing to display a permit. Where in your lease, which takes priority, does it say you have to display a permit?
2) & 5) hassle the managing agent again
And add in the landowner. Derogation of grant
QUOTE
4) See 1)



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DragonQ
post Sun, 28 May 2017 - 12:09
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 27 May 2017 - 07:31) *
1) You have the right to park given in you lease. The "Charge" was for failing to display a permit. Where in your lease, which takes priority, does it say you have to display a permit?

The deeds say nothing about needing a permit, hence my letter to UK CPM telling them to get stuffed.

QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 27 May 2017 - 07:31) *
2) & 5) hassle the managing agent again

Yep, I plan to.

QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Sat, 27 May 2017 - 08:14) *
And add in the landowner. Derogation of grant

I have no idea who the landowner is. In the deeds the common areas, including visitor spaces, are merely labelled "management land".
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Lynnzer
post Sun, 28 May 2017 - 12:43
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QUOTE (DragonQ @ Sun, 28 May 2017 - 13:09) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 27 May 2017 - 07:31) *
1) You have the right to park given in you lease. The "Charge" was for failing to display a permit. Where in your lease, which takes priority, does it say you have to display a permit?

The deeds say nothing about needing a permit, hence my letter to UK CPM telling them to get stuffed.

QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 27 May 2017 - 07:31) *
2) & 5) hassle the managing agent again

Yep, I plan to.

QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Sat, 27 May 2017 - 08:14) *
And add in the landowner. Derogation of grant

I have no idea who the landowner is. In the deeds the common areas, including visitor spaces, are merely labelled "management land".

It costs a tenner to find out from the Land Registry I believe. You can also ask the managing agent. They are obliged to let you know.


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DragonQ
post Mon, 29 May 2017 - 10:37
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Should I post the draft of the letter I intend to send the management company here first?
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DragonQ
post Fri, 2 Jun 2017 - 16:45
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Turns out the management company itself owns the land, at least that's what they've told me.
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Lynnzer
post Fri, 2 Jun 2017 - 17:15
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QUOTE (DragonQ @ Fri, 2 Jun 2017 - 17:45) *
Turns out the management company itself owns the land, at least that's what they've told me.

Yeah, but are they the Lessor?


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ostell
post Sat, 3 Jun 2017 - 06:17
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This has been mentioned in another case in abither thread but it was in fact two different companies at Companies House. Get the full names of both. Even if they do reckon they own it then they cannot vary your lease at a whim.
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DragonQ
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:30
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Quick update: I've received a Letter Before Claim from UKCPM's solicitor. I am preparing a response at the moment. Should I reply directly to UKCPM or to the solicitor that sent me the LBC?
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cabbyman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:34
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Show us the LBC, suitably redacted, and your proposed response. Gladstones????


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DragonQ
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:51
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Hilariously non-compliant LBC attached, still working on the response. Yes it's Gladstones, how did guess? wink.gif

I do notice though that they refer to the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims, which came into force on 01/10/2017. Is there anything new here that would make any advice here or at the MSE forums out of date? For example the Practice Direction's list of stuff that needs to be in an LBC is for "pre-action procedures where no pre-action protocol or other formal pre-action procedure applies"; since the PAP for Debt Claims now exists, this list may no longer be relevant?

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cabbyman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:06
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My initial reaction is that you can't respond under PAP because they haven't sent you a compliant PAP!!!

I haven't familiarised my self with the protocol yet but others have and will advise in detail.


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