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CPM parking charge notice
niikii
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 10:25
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I'm new in this forum. I need your help please I'm tenant in private residence UK CAR-PARK ENGAGEMENT took control our residence parking nearly 9 month ago and I got 6 ticket all together.

My vehicle was issued 6 ticket one after another 1st PCN on 16th of June 2016 the day I have parked my car at Lantern Close in bay no:46 where usually I’m parking my car last four years and the reason stated on ticket is “Not displaying valid permit” and I was shocked that my parking permit was displayed on wind screen so why warden issued ticket to me? Before I find out why they issued ticket? I wrote formal appeal to them to give me a reason why they issuing ticket to me? I wrote all the appeal to them for clarify why they issuing ticket to me? Even my permit always displayed on wind screen!
Finally I received their explanation letter on 16th of July after 29 days stating that my permit is not correspond to the parking bay where I’m parking my car. I have a visitor permit which was issued by CPM and my visitor permit displayed on careen and I’m not visitor I’m tenant and I have only visitor permit they supposed to give more clear reason on ticket that “Not displaying valid residence permit “Instead of saying “Not displaying valid permit” until now I was thinking that I have valid permit and I'm parking my car in 46 bay last four years and the 46 bay owner they don't have car and they were happy to let me park my car in their bay Its took 29 days to know what happened in between they already issued 5 ticket unfairly I’m not stupid if I knew that they talking about my visitor permit is not valid for 46 bay then I could have moved my car when the 1st ticket was issued not waiting for putting ticket one after another.

After rejected my appeal by CPM I wrote appeal to Independent Appeals Service TheIAS.org and lost my appeal there as well.
Now I'm worried CPM start sending letter to pay £100 each ticket all together £600 I cannot afford.

Please advice on below point.
(1) what is the private car park company rules? CPM took control 9 month ago but they didn't check car park since they took charge of and suddenly in June start issuing ticket to me.
(2) What next as i have lost my appeal in ISA as well
(3) I read in forum that private company can not charge me full amount but they can only charge the money that they loss on private land.

I'm feeling very stressful can somebody help me please!
Sorry for my poor English may I didn't explain very well.
Thank you in advance for your help.

This post has been edited by niikii: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 10:27
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post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 10:25
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Jlc
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 11:12
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You're not in a good place I'm afraid. With 6 tickets there's a good chance they will proceed with a claim.

QUOTE (niikii @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 11:25) *
(1) what is the private car park company rules? CPM took control 9 month ago but they didn't check car park since they took charge of and suddenly in June start
issuing ticket to me.

Rules? Whatever they want basically.

QUOTE (niikii @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 11:25) *
(2) What next as i have lost my appeal in ISA as well

Unfortunately appealing to the IAS hasn't helped you - a rejection was almost inevitable. As far as they were concerned the signs were up, you didn't have a permit and therefore you have to pay.

In terms of what next they expect you to pay. As I noted above, there's a good chance they may well issue a claim. Also, you may find the charges escalate and they may well issue a claim for something nearer £1,000.

QUOTE (niikii @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 11:25) *
(3) I read in forum that private company can not charge me full amount but they can only charge the money that they loss on private land.

'Loss' as a defence is mostly dead following ParkingEye v Beavis. That's an over-simplification but in short they don't have to show what they are claiming is any loss.

However, not is all lost but you have to be proactive.

Pictures of the signs please. (There's a strong likelihood the signs are forbidding and a contract has not been formed)
You are parking in someone elses space with permission - we would need to know what terms they have on that parking spot as the parking company may not have the rights to issue charges. i.e. the terms of their lease.
Was the car moved between issuing tickets?


This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 11:13


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Jo Carn
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 11:19
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Have you admitted in writing that you were the driver?
Ask for an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract they have with the landowner to act on their behalf.
Get a picture of all the signs near where you parked - they may be contradictory.
What time of day did you park? If at night, were the signs lit?
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ostell
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 11:44
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Do you have your own bay in the development ?
Bay 46 owners. Is that bay allocated to them through their lease ? Ask them if they would be good enough to check. If it is part of their lease then ask them if the will write a letter confirming you have their permission to use their land.

You did have a valid permit so there claim is false, unless the signs have a definition of different permits. Can you put up a photo of the signs, all the different ones.

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cabbyman
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 13:04
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What does your lease or tenancy agreement say about parking?

If you can't interpret it, post a copy on here with all personal details deleted.


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niikii
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 16:56
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 12:12) *
You're not in a good place I'm afraid. With 6 tickets there's a good chance they will proceed with a claim.

QUOTE (niikii @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 11:25) *
(1) what is the private car park company rules? CPM took control 9 month ago but they didn't check car park since they took charge of and suddenly in June start
issuing ticket to me.

Rules? Whatever they want basically.

QUOTE (niikii @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 11:25) *
(2) What next as i have lost my appeal in ISA as well

Unfortunately appealing to the IAS hasn't helped you - a rejection was almost inevitable. As far as they were concerned the signs were up, you didn't have a permit and therefore you have to pay.

In terms of what next they expect you to pay. As I noted above, there's a good chance they may well issue a claim. Also, you may find the charges escalate and they may well issue a claim for something nearer £1,000.

QUOTE (niikii @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 11:25) *
(3) I read in forum that private company can not charge me full amount but they can only charge the money that they loss on private land.

'Loss' as a defence is mostly dead following ParkingEye v Beavis. That's an over-simplification but in short they don't have to show what they are claiming is any loss.

However, not is all lost but you have to be proactive.

Pictures of the signs please. (There's a strong likelihood the signs are forbidding and a contract has not been formed)
You are parking in someone elses space with permission - we would need to know what terms they have on that parking spot as the parking company may not have the rights to issue charges. i.e. the terms of their lease.
Was the car moved between issuing tickets?



First of all, Thank you for replying my post.
Here is the sign of car park management restrictions
Yes car was moved between they issued ticket as I have visitor permit only I was under impression that they are issuing ticket because of they cannot see my permit. I found letter when they explained that my permit is correspond to bay 46.

QUOTE (Jo Carn @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 12:19) *
Have you admitted in writing that you were the driver?
Ask for an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract they have with the landowner to act on their behalf.
Get a picture of all the signs near where you parked - they may be contradictory.
What time of day did you park? If at night, were the signs lit?


Thank you for reply.
I have asked now CPM to provide their contract copy made with landowner.
I was parking through out day and night as I'm tenant here more then four years.
Here is the sign of restriction of CPM

QUOTE (Jo Carn @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 12:19) *
Have you admitted in writing that you were the driver?
Ask for an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract they have with the landowner to act on their behalf.
Get a picture of all the signs near where you parked - they may be contradictory.
What time of day did you park? If at night, were the signs lit?


Yes I did admit in writing that I'm the driver when appeal to TheISA

This post has been edited by niikii: Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 16:48
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ostell
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 17:00
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That sign is rubbish, it is a forbidding notice. It forbids you to park without a permit therefore if you do park without a permit then you are trespassing and only the landowner can then claim against you.

You were displaying a permit. Where on that sign does it say different rules for visitor permits? It also says "may be issued". Easiest route is to see what the owners of 46 have in their lease. What "offence" was on the windscreen tickets?
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niikii
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 17:01
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 12:44) *
Do you have your own bay in the development ?
Bay 46 owners. Is that bay allocated to them through their lease ? Ask them if they would be good enough to check. If it is part of their lease then ask them if the will write a letter confirming you have their permission to use their land.

You did have a valid permit so there claim is false, unless the signs have a definition of different permits. Can you put up a photo of the signs, all the different ones.


I do not have owner bay but I do have a visitor permit because the resident who have garage they don't have resident permit they issued only visitor permit.
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ostell
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 17:09
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You were parking where you were with the permission of the the owners of bay 46. If their lease says that the own that space then you can tell the parking company to go away. That is why it is important that you find out more about the lease.

Parking companies come on to a site and set up a set of their own rules. If the land that they are operating on is owned by other people then they cannot legally do that, hence the importance of the lease. The permits that they insist on may not be required under the lease. Even your own lease may not require you to have a permit. The leases take precedence over any parking company rules.
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niikii
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 17:13
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 18:00) *
That sign is rubbish, it is a forbidding notice. It forbids you to park without a permit therefore if you do park without a permit then you are trespassing and only the landowner can then claim against you.

You were displaying a permit. Where on that sign does it say different rules for visitor permits? It also says "may be issued". Easiest route is to see what the owners of 46 have in their lease. What "offence" was on the windscreen tickets?


Thank you for reply, my visitor permit was always displayed on wind screen and on permit there is no other rules just says only vistor bay enclosed my permit picture and I have checked resident permit in their permit says Resident permit and their bay no and issued date.
Offence on ticket was "Not displaying valid permit"
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ostell
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 17:16
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you must do the research on what the leases say.
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niikii
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 17:29
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 18:09) *
You were parking where you were with the permission of the the owners of bay 46. If their lease says that the own that space then you can tell the parking company to go away. That is why it is important that you find out more about the lease.

Parking companies come on to a site and set up a set of their own rules. If the land that they are operating on is owned by other people then they cannot legally do that, hence the importance of the lease. The permits that they insist on may not be required under the lease. Even your own lease may not require you to have a permit. The leases take precedence over any parking company rules.


Thank you again, while I was parking on bay 46 tenant of 46 he was verbally told me that he is happy if I park my car in his bay as he doesn't have car. I think car park space is not belongs to resident as I have a parking issue in 2012 and I received email from property management confirm that car park spaces not belongs to residents in that case if I park in 46 is doesn't matter if this bay is not owned by owner of 46. I'm attaching email copy
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Crabtree_edited.pdf ( 177.11K ) Number of downloads: 80
 
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niikii
post Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 18:22
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QUOTE (niikii @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 18:13) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 12 Aug 2016 - 18:00) *
That sign is rubbish, it is a forbidding notice. It forbids you to park without a permit therefore if you do park without a permit then you are trespassing and only the landowner can then claim against you.

You were displaying a permit. Where on that sign does it say different rules for visitor permits? It also says "may be issued". Easiest route is to see what the owners of 46 have in their lease. What "offence" was on the windscreen tickets?


Thank you for reply, my visitor permit was always displayed on wind screen and on permit there is no other rules just says only vistor bay enclosed my permit picture and I have checked resident permit in their permit says Resident permit and their bay no and issued date.
Offence on ticket was "Not displaying valid permit"

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kommando
post Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 08:46
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You still need to get to see the lease of the person who gave you permission to see what it says about parking.
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ostell
post Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 10:53
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So that attachment you gave in post #12 is saying that there are no allocated or numbered parking bays but now they ae saying they are numbered. They also stated that residents had a right to park in any bay.

Yet again you need to look in the lease to see what it says about parking. It could be that the lease gives the right to park in any bay but that right has been removed. If the lease says that you have the right to park then no parking company can change the terms of the lease afterwards.
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niikii
post Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 19:30
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QUOTE (kommando @ Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 09:46) *
You still need to get to see the lease of the person who gave you permission to see what it says about parking.


Thank you,
I checked my tenancy agreement there is no clause at all about parking.
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cabbyman
post Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 19:33
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What does it say about the premises and land included in your tenancy? You may like to blank out personal and identifying info and post the lease on here for us to have a look.


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niikii
post Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 19:42
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 11:53) *
So that attachment you gave in post #12 is saying that there are no allocated or numbered parking bays but now they ae saying they are numbered. They also stated that residents had a right to park in any bay.

Yet again you need to look in the lease to see what it says about parking. It could be that the lease gives the right to park in any bay but that right has been removed. If the lease says that you have the right to park then no parking company can change the terms of the lease afterwards.


Many thanks for reply.

I have checked my tenancy contract there is nothing written about parking.

What worse can happen with me?
CPM sent me FORMAL DEMAND letter for 1st ticket which i lost case in theIAS me to pay £100 if I don't pay in 28 days then they will send debt recovery agent and charge will increase to £140.00
can they take me to court?
I'm really worried now
I sent email to property management company to confirm about ownership of parking space and also I asked to provide me agreement copy which made between property management and car park management.


QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 20:33) *
What does it say about the premises and land included in your tenancy? You may like to blank out personal and identifying info and post the lease on here for us to have a look.

Thanks for quick reply.
I checked tenancy agreement there is nothing about land and parking.
I will post my tenancy agreement here but i'm not good how to hide personal info on agreement but i will try to find the way how to do that.
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cabbyman
post Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 19:46
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If you have any post-it notes, trim them and stick them over the relevant bits before you scan. Be careful not to obscure relevant clauses.


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niikii
post Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 20:29
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QUOTE (niikii @ Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 20:42) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 11:53) *
So that attachment you gave in post #12 is saying that there are no allocated or numbered parking bays but now they ae saying they are numbered. They also stated that residents had a right to park in any bay.

Yet again you need to look in the lease to see what it says about parking. It could be that the lease gives the right to park in any bay but that right has been removed. If the lease says that you have the right to park then no parking company can change the terms of the lease afterwards.


Many thanks for reply.

I have checked my tenancy contract there is nothing written about parking.

What worse can happen with me?
CPM sent me FORMAL DEMAND letter for 1st ticket which i lost case in theIAS me to pay £100 if I don't pay in 28 days then they will send debt recovery agent and charge will increase to £140.00
can they take me to court?
I'm really worried now
I sent email to property management company to confirm about ownership of parking space and also I asked to provide me agreement copy which made between property management and car park management.


QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sat, 13 Aug 2016 - 20:33) *
What does it say about the premises and land included in your tenancy? You may like to blank out personal and identifying info and post the lease on here for us to have a look.

Thanks for quick reply.
I checked tenancy agreement there is nothing about land and parking.
I will post my tenancy agreement here but i'm not good how to hide personal info on agreement but i will try to find the way how to do that.


I have scanned my agreement there is total 10 pages but all in PDF file and I cannot post here as file size is larger then I have space. what to do now?

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