PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

[NIP Wizard] Driving without due care and attention
uts321
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 12:31
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,220



NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2019
Date of the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A4041 Queslett Road, Birmingham
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was driving to work in the morning as usual. As I went along the Queslett Road through Sutton Coldfield, I spotted a police officer in hi-viz standing in a crossing area within the central reservation of the dual carriageway. At the point I saw him I was doing between 45 and 50mph (40mph limit on the road) in the outside lane and eased off the accelerator (going uphill) before I passed him. I glanced at him and saw him holding what looked like a speed gun at around stomach height.

I half expected to receive a NIP for speeding, and wasn't surprised when the NIP arrived. What surprised me though is that it's for the offence of "Drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road / public place without due care and attention". The vehicle speed indicated is 0. Beyond that, I have no idea what I'm supposed to have done. I wasn't involved in any accident and nothing untoward or even memorable occurred anywhere on my journey, other than driving past said police officer.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 12:27:49 +0000

I posted the S172 information back within a couple of days (with proof of posting and delivery), but I've not heard anything back since and it's coming up to two months.

The NIP mentions maybe being eligible for an educational course and I was hoping this would be the case, but the longer it's taking the more worried I'm getting. Is the length of time a bad sign and should I expect a summons? Will they at that point tell me exactly what it is I'm alleged to have done?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 12:31
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Logician
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 12:39
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,277
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



Was he close enough to the active lane you were travelling in to have considered himself in danger of being struck by you? Your speed alone should not be sufficient to sustain a charge of careless driving, it may be that he either considered himself at risk or that you were guilty of inconsiderate driving. Other than that, they may simply have sent out the wrong form.

This post has been edited by Logician: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 12:40


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
uts321
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 12:59
Post #3


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,220



He was stood, not moving, within the crossing area ( https://goo.gl/maps/fVST8cwr2Eb9zxEdA ), between the two traffic light poles, so no danger of anyone running him over. All I can think is that is was because I was in the outside lane and hadn't moved back across. I honestly can't recall whether there was a vehicle in front of me or not, so perhaps there was and he considered me too close to it. There was just nothing out of the ordinary, and the roads in the area were quieter due to it being the school holidays.

Incidentally, why do I see more police speed/traffic checks during the holidays when there are no kids walking to school, as well as other pedestrians, and parents parking in the road?

This post has been edited by uts321: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 13:44
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 13:37
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 43,067
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



If you could edit that post and but a space either side of the URL so the brackets don’t stop it becoming a link that would be great!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
uts321
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 13:45
Post #5


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,220



Sorry, hadn't realised it had done that. Edited now so link should work.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BaggieBoy
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 14:29
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,349
Joined: 3 Apr 2006
From: North Hampshire
Member No.: 5,183



Are you sure the light hadn't turned red before you passed him?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
uts321
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 14:36
Post #7


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,220



I'm fairly certain it didn't (thought has gone through my mind as well) and there wasn't anyone waiting to cross that I saw. There were also other cars on the road behind and I don't recall seeing anyone stopping.

If I had run a red light, wouldn't there be a different offence listed for that?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
uts321
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:04
Post #8


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,220



How long do you think it'll take for me to hear anything back from them?

I'm also moving house in a week's time. I've set up mail forwarding to my new address with Royal Mail, but I'm still slightly worried about missing something important. Do I need to inform WMP about my change of address, or will the forwarding suffice?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:22
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 43,067
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



If you ran a red light, yes I'd expect that to be the offence chosen, similar punishment and easier to prove.

How long it takes them to respond depends on how they want to progress.

If they decide to offer an awareness course or fixed penalty it would be 2-4 weeks usually.
If they want to interview you then it may be slightly quicker.
If they decide to take it straight to court then you may hear nothing for about 6 months, proceedings (raisng the paperwork) have to start within 6 months of the offence but you may get the 'summons' a couple of weeks later.

Maybe the 'speed gun' was a camera?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BaggieBoy
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:45
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,349
Joined: 3 Apr 2006
From: North Hampshire
Member No.: 5,183



My thinking was, if the light was red and the officer was in a position to cross but had to avoid someone crossing at red, it might be seen as careless or worse.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 11:45
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,622
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 10:45) *
My thinking was, if the light was red and the officer was in a position to cross but had to avoid someone crossing at red, it might be seen as careless or worse.

I'd expect a dual charge in this scenario, so that if the accused is acquitted of section 3 he can at least be convicted of contravening s36.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
666
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 13:56
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,370
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,602



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 12:45) *
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 10:45) *
My thinking was, if the light was red and the officer was in a position to cross but had to avoid someone crossing at red, it might be seen as careless or worse.

I'd expect a dual charge in this scenario, so that if the accused is acquitted of section 3 he can at least be convicted of contravening s36.

Agreed.

I'd suggest that a more liikely infraction in the OP's scenario is overtaking within the zigzags. Much less memorable than running a red light.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
uts321
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 16:25
Post #13


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,220



QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 13:56) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 12:45) *
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 10:45) *
My thinking was, if the light was red and the officer was in a position to cross but had to avoid someone crossing at red, it might be seen as careless or worse.

I'd expect a dual charge in this scenario, so that if the accused is acquitted of section 3 he can at least be convicted of contravening s36.

Agreed.

I'd suggest that a more liikely infraction in the OP's scenario is overtaking within the zigzags. Much less memorable than running a red light.


I suppose that's possible but as you say, not particularly memorable, although I do remember there being vehicles on the inside lane. I'm almost certain the crossing light was on green. There weren't any pedestrians nearby that I remember seeing, just the brightly coloured copper, and the whole area was quieter due the school holidays (it's not far from a secondary school so far more people about during term time).

Is it really such a heinous offence that they'd take me to court over it, rather than issue a fixed penalty?

I suppose it's made all the more annoying given the examples I see of stupid and downright dangerous driving, including the parents driving to and parking outside the aforementiond school, I see every day when there's normally never any police to be found within miles.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 03:08
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 43,067
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (uts321 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 17:25) *
Is it really such a heinous offence that they'd take me to court over it, rather than issue a fixed penalty?

Until we know what the 'it' alleged may be (right now no-one on here, including you, know), then no-one can say whether it's heinous or not really!

As it seems no course or Fixed penalty will be offered and it appears they don't want to interview you then you'll probably have to wait out the 6 month to see if they intend to take the matter to court or not.

You could always call 'them' (if you know a name or department) and ask how they intend to progress the matter an see what they say, unlikely it will change anything negatively. Even if they intend to progress it you could ask what you did that caused them to believe it was careless driving.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 11:55
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,622
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 04:08) *
As it seems no course or Fixed penalty will be offered and it appears they don't want to interview you then you'll probably have to wait out the 6 month to see if they intend to take the matter to court or not.

And why would that be? There is no reason why an FPN or course can't be offered for s3.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 13:31
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 43,067
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Because for an offence in August and a prompt reply I’d have expected them to have offered it by now if they were going to. That’s why it seems to me that none will be offered.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 13:32


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
andy_foster
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 20:28
Post #17


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 20,739
Joined: 9 Sep 2004
From: Reading
Member No.: 1,624



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 12:45) *
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 10:45) *
My thinking was, if the light was red and the officer was in a position to cross but had to avoid someone crossing at red, it might be seen as careless or worse.

I'd expect a dual charge in this scenario, so that if the accused is acquitted of section 3 he can at least be convicted of contravening s36.


As that would be unlawful, I wouldn't.


--------------------
Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
uts321
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 10:09
Post #18


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,220



Yesterday I emailed WMP's Central Ticket Office to let them know that my address is changing at the end of this week, as I still haven't heard from them, and I also asked how they intend to progress and if they could tell me what it is I'm alleged to have done.

I received a reply this morning:

QUOTE
I can confirm after reviewing your notice that this matter has now been passed to the Magistrates Court and the paperwork will be issued to yourself shortly.

If you have changed your address since sending the admission you may need to notify the Birmingham Magistrates Courts to advise.


Still no indication of what I'm supposed to have done. All I remember doing was driving to work as usual, on a normal morning where nothing out of the ordinary happened except for seeing a police officer stood by the road. I'm genuinely confused and a little bit terrified as they haven't seen fit to issue a FPN or offer a course (despite the NIP letter indicating that's what would happen) for whatever I've done.

What will happen next? Am I going to have to go to court? Do I need to contact a solicitor? It's stress I really could do without at the moment in the middle of a house move.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 10:23
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 43,067
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



When the 'summons' (single justice procedure notice) arrives it will include a statement of facts about what they think you did and also usually the officers statement.

You may be able to plead by post or have to attend, there is no point getting a solicitor until you know more, and probably not even then.

I'm willing to bet they didn't say they would offer an FPN or course, it will be a suggestion they may, its a stock form that isn't tailored to a defendant and they wouldnt rule out court for everyone would they.

I'm bemused about the address change as the Police produce and send out the SJPN not the court.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
uts321
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 10:33
Post #20


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 17 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,220



'Indicating' was probably the wrong word. It's just the way they word it, "The form only takes a few minutes to complete. Do it now so you don't miss out on the opportunity to attend an educational course", with the provisio of not being guaranteed and subject to eligibility. It's like "enter now, win a prize!".

Should I contact Birmingham Magistrates Court about my address?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 14th November 2019 - 13:58
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.