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PCN Fulham - Stopping in a box
daxilic
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 17:38
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At morning rush hour in Fulham, London I was at a set of lights at a t-junction needing to go right (exact location details below). Even when the lights went green I couldn't go right as there was no space to enter the short piece of road after the box, which had another set of lights. I must have been waiting at least 5 minutes to go right and the lights had changed about three times. Due to the way the lights were synced and the heavy traffic it was impossible to go right without stopping in the box and I was holding up a lot of traffic behind me, with cars wanting to go left - which they could have if I wasn't waiting to go right. Because of this a few drivers behind were heavily beeping me and eventually I gave in and joined the road after the box, with my car in the box (not blocking any other traffic). I'm certain that I would have been stuck at the lights holding everyone up behind me for a good 5-10 more minutes.

I suppose to get around this I could have gone left then somewhere down the road turned around to come back on myself, but in London rush hour that probably would have cost me 20 extra minutes which I didn't have, plus I really shouldn't have to do that. Ideally there should be two lanes - one for going left, one for right, but that wasn't the case.

Of course today I receive the PCN for £65 (reduced amount). Have I got any chance of appealing here or was it a case of s**t happens?


Location:

Bagleys Lane where it meets New King's Road

Location on Google Maps




Here's a diagram to show the problem:




The PCN letter:







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post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 17:38
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cp8759
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 15:21
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 16:05) *
If I'm understanding you correctly, would this not be the result?
Bagleys by Neil Black, on Flickr

Not really, because the cars in red wouldn't be allowed to be where they are. However if the yellow box only covered half of the road, once the lights on Bagleys turn green, cars wanting to turn right can take the first available gap that opens up. With the current setup, they cannot do so, as they risk a PCN from the council (and this is exactly what happened to the OP). As the OP's case clearly demonstrates, the current setup impedes traffic.

With the current setup the correct but obviously absurd approach would be to just sit there indefinitely until a clear exit is available. Or until the old bill turns up to find out why the road is blocked, so you can explain the conundrum and he would just tell you to f off and turn right, at which point you could beat the PCN on the grounds that you'd been directed to turn right by a constable in uniform. This is just another way of saying that the restriction cannot be lawful if it makes the execution of an otherwise lawful manoeuvre impossible.

One also has to remember that the fundamental purpose of yellow boxes is to ensure that traffic going in one direction isn't obstructed by queuing traffic wanting to go in a different direction, as this causes a loss of usable road surface. But traffic wanting to turn right out of Bagleys wants to go in the same direction as traffic coming from the left, so traffic turning right of of Bagleys isn't "impeding" traffic from the left in the way that yellow box junctions are meant to prevent.


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Neil B
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 15:55
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 16:21) *
cars wanting to turn right can take the first available gap that opens up. With the current setup, they cannot do so, as they risk a PCN from the council (and this is exactly what happened to the OP). As the OP's case clearly demonstrates, the current setup impedes traffic.

There is never a gap: The next signals, just seven car lengths up stays red for ages while the NKR signal at Bagleys stays green.
There is simply too much traffic wanting to go straight ahead and the junction would be permanently
full of vehicles as I've shown. The OP would not have made it as far as they did and would have been one of the red cars.

I do recall that YBJs shouldn't cover both carriageways in such situations, as you say, but your solution seems no
solution at all.
I'll jump out there and guess we'll agree to differ.
I still think the signals are the problem.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 16:47
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 16:55) *
I do recall that YBJs shouldn't cover both carriageways in such situations, as you say, but your solution seems no
solution at all.

If you look at the relevant 2002 regulations, it is indeed the case that the 2002 regs didn't allow this design, see diagrams 1043 and 1044 here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/6/made
There was a case exactly like this where the tribunal ruled the yellow box junction could not cover the whole road and the restriction was unlawful. Unfortunately with the 2016 regulations, that argument is no longer available. We'll just have to agree to disagree about the traffic management merits of either approach (but had it been up to me, I would have kept the 2002 regulations anyway).

At this point there are two arguments I could see being taken forward:

1) The restrictions are intrinsically unlawful / irrational as they serve no rational traffic management purpose;
2) Even if argument 1 fails, the combination of the light timings and the yellow box markings make it impossible to turn right without being in contravention, and where the authority's design of a junction makes compliance impossible, the tribunal should find that no contravention occurred.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 27 May 2018 - 16:47


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daxilic
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 13:12
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 17:47) *
At this point there are two arguments I could see being taken forward:

1) The restrictions are intrinsically unlawful / irrational as they serve no rational traffic management purpose;
2) Even if argument 1 fails, the combination of the light timings and the yellow box markings make it impossible to turn right without being in contravention, and where the authority's design of a junction makes compliance impossible, the tribunal should find that no contravention occurred.



Apologies for late response, busy weekend!

I agree with the points above, although won't they just argue that I could have driven into the outer lane that was clear?

Also can I clarify again that I only stand a chance of winning if I go through adjudication/tribunal route, rather than just appealing? At this point I'm leaning towards the £65 option as £130 adjudication/tribunal gamble looks risky - your judgement is better than mine however.

Thanks again to everyone for the help so far, much appreciated.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 14:15
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what you ave to consider is that you have £65 in your pocket, its not yours its the councils. They will give you a double or quits bet, now if its a 50/50 shot its worth it. It might only be 40/60 but you get two shots, and if the council reject the first they are could easily strengthen your hand to even things up. And secondly if you save the cost of a cup of coffee a week from now until you would have to pay in the event you lose, then you will save the difference


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cp8759
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 16:44
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You also have to consider that the council may well commit a procedural impropriety along the way, if they do, the contravention becomes academic as a procedural impropriety will win on its own. Personally I would fight this all the way, but it's your choice.


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daxilic
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 19:24
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 29 May 2018 - 17:44) *
You also have to consider that the council may well commit a procedural impropriety along the way, if they do, the contravention becomes academic as a procedural impropriety will win on its own. Personally I would fight this all the way, but it's your choice.


And if you did fight it all the way, how confident are you that you would win?
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cp8759
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 23:22
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Tue, 29 May 2018 - 20:24) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 29 May 2018 - 17:44) *
You also have to consider that the council may well commit a procedural impropriety along the way, if they do, the contravention becomes academic as a procedural impropriety will win on its own. Personally I would fight this all the way, but it's your choice.


And if you did fight it all the way, how confident are you that you would win?

Maybe 60%, I wouldn't rate it higher than that just because the left hand lane was clear. But IMO we cannot get away from the fact that the current design of the junction makes a lawful manoeuvre impossible and enforcement is therefore an abuse of process.


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hcandersen
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 07:41
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That the driver did not exit the box must have been their choice because they say they could have done.

So they stopped in the box because they couldn't exit at their chosen point by virtue of a stationary vehicle.

IMO, not a hope in hell of succeeding on the contravention at appeal.

The adj will not discuss the merits of the YBJ, the only reason for raising it in reps is to try and construct an argument regarding failure to consider.
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daxilic
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 18:02
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Ok I'll fight it, besides, this whole thread would be a waste of time if I just paid the £65.

What's the procedure - do I make a representation online with my argument and if (when) they reject it I can use an adjudicator?
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cp8759
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 18:08
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 19:02) *
What's the procedure - do I make a representation online with my argument and if (when) they reject it I can use an adjudicator?

In short, yes.


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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 18:08
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 19:02) *
Ok I'll fight it, besides, this whole thread would be a waste of time if I just paid the £65.

What's the procedure - do I make a representation online with my argument and if (when) they reject it I can use an adjudicator?


You make reps to the council first, but these are going to be very technical let us help. I have some ideas as i am sure do CP and HCA


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daxilic
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 18:21
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 19:08) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 19:02) *
Ok I'll fight it, besides, this whole thread would be a waste of time if I just paid the £65.

What's the procedure - do I make a representation online with my argument and if (when) they reject it I can use an adjudicator?


You make reps to the council first, but these are going to be very technical let us help. I have some ideas as i am sure do CP and HCA


That would be amazing if you could help, I'm not great at the terminology and legislation. I can write some blurb then you guys could check it?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 18:23
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QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 19:21) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 19:08) *
QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 19:02) *
Ok I'll fight it, besides, this whole thread would be a waste of time if I just paid the £65.

What's the procedure - do I make a representation online with my argument and if (when) they reject it I can use an adjudicator?


You make reps to the council first, but these are going to be very technical let us help. I have some ideas as i am sure do CP and HCA


That would be amazing if you could help, I'm not great at the terminology and legislation. I can write some blurb then you guys could check it?


That is always good,


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daxilic
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 19:12
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OK this is what I've come up with:

I entered and stopped in the yellow box because I was blocking traffic behind me waiting to turn left out of Bagleys Lane. I needed to go right but the clear road after the yellow box was constantly blocked due to the heavy traffic, even when the lights were green on my road. I kept waiting for the exit to become clear but after a while the drivers behind were getting angry and beeping me to move out of the way so they could turn left. I had been waiting for a while and the lights had changed from red to green at least twice, yet the exit still wasn't clear. I had no choice but to enter the box, stopping behind the car blocking the exit out of the box, as seen on the CCTV footage.

While sitting at the changing lights on Bagleys Lane, waiting for my exit to clear, I had the following options:

1) Continue waiting for a clear exit after the box, which could have easily taken another 5 or 10 minutes, whilst blocking all traffic behind from turning left;
2) Enter the outer left lane after the yellow box which was clear, but have to try and get back into the right lane to continue down New King's Road (where I needed to go), probably cutting someone up in the process;
3) Turn left, then turn around somewhere to go back on myself, wasting valuable time I didn't have;
4) Enter the box to let the traffic out, stop and wait for clear exit, receive £65 fine.

All of these options are irrational and therefore unlawful. The combination of traffic light sequence/timings and yellow box markings make it impossible to turn right without being in contravention. The design of the junction makes compliance impossible.


Feel free to change anything or all of it, or tell me what to change.

This post has been edited by daxilic: Wed, 30 May 2018 - 19:14
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cp8759
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 20:01
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Here's my take on it (this will need to be expanded upon quite significantly if it goes to the tribunal):

QUOTE (daxilic @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 20:12) *
I entered and stopped in the yellow box because I was blocking traffic behind me waiting to turn left out of Bagleys Lane. I needed to go right but the clear road after the yellow box was constantly blocked due to the heavy traffic, even when the lights were green on my road. I kept waiting for the exit to become clear but after a while the drivers behind were getting angry and beeping me to move out of the way so they could turn left. I had been waiting for a while and the lights had changed from red to green at least twice, yet the exit still wasn't clear. I had no choice but to enter the box, stopping behind the car blocking the exit out of the box, as seen on the CCTV footage.

While sitting at the changing lights on Bagleys Lane, waiting for my exit to clear, I had the following options:

1) Continue waiting for a clear exit after the box, which could have easily taken another 5 or 10 minutes, whilst blocking all traffic behind from turning left;
2) Enter the outer left lane after the yellow box which was clear, but have to try and get back into the right lane to continue down New King's Road (where I needed to go), probably cutting someone up in the process;
3) Turn left, then turn around somewhere to go back on myself, wasting valuable time I didn't have;
4) Enter the box to let the traffic out, stop and wait for clear exit, receive £65 fine.

This shows that there was no lawful way to turn right, a manoeuvre which, but for the yellow box markings, would have been lawful. The combination of traffic light sequence/timings and yellow box markings make it impossible to turn right without being in contravention. The design of the junction makes compliance impossible. The tribunal has repeatedly held in the past that, where the design of road signs, markings, lanes or junctions make it impossible for a law abiding citizen to complete an otherwise lawful manoeuvre without being in contravention, a contravention does not occur.

Rather than facilitate the flow of traffic, the yellow box markings at this junction, when combined with the traffic light timings, make it impossible to turn right in heavy traffic. If this had been the outcome desired by the Highways Authority, this could be achieved much more simply with a no right turn sign, but there is nothing to suggest in this instance that the authority intended to prohibit traffic from turning right. The restrictions as they stand serve no rational traffic management purpose. By trapping traffic wanting to turn left behind vehicles which, due to the yellow box markings, are unable to make any progress in their attempts to turn right, the yellow box markings actually have the perverse effect of impeding traffic. No reasonable highways authority could reasonably impose restrictions which impede the flow of traffic in this way. If the highways authority has imposed restrictions which no reasonable authority would ever impose, it is trite law that the restrictions are unlawful on public law grounds, see Associated Provincial Picture Houses Ltd. v Wednesbury Corporation [1948] 1 KB 223; it follows that the yellow box markings in this instance cannot be relied on by the enforcement authority and the Penalty Charge Notice must be cancelled.



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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 20:18
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I want to give a sympathetic adjudicator something to hang his hat on. Bearing in mind what you say about the other drivers behind getting frustrated and angry beeping flashing and gesticulating for you to move. you felt so intimidated that you moved foreward. This being so you were forced into the box by the actions of other drivers. Then go with the box stretching outwith the confines of the junction. Both arguments are sound if they can be made. I think they can and will do so in the next day or so. Busy tonight and a fair bit of tomorrow

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 30 May 2018 - 20:18


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hcandersen
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 20:56
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Of course the driver can turn right lawfully, they just have to wait their turn.

On what basis do the short-tempered actions of drivers create a legal defence for the OP against the contravention?

Are we forgetting that the OP could have moved into a vacant lane but chose not to?

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cp8759
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 21:12
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@hcandersen, as I have explained, if an authority creates a restriction which is Wednesbury unreasonable, the restriction is null and void and cannot be enforced. I've not guaranteed success but it is an arguable ground and IMO has a reasonable (as in not remote or fanciful) chance of success. Daxilic has read your comment ("not a hope in hell") and has nonetheless made a choice to fight on, so it is now up to us to do what we can to provide arguable grounds that can be taken forward.

If you have additional grounds which you wish to draft, daxilic can combine them with whatever I and PASTMYBEST come up with and I'm sure the result will be greater than the sum of the parts.


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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 22:20
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The first element of the contravention is. ENTERING as the regs state " must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction" One of the key case discusses this it talks about being pushed into the box by another party.
In these PC days it is not to much of a stretch that the intimidating behaviour of others acts in the same way to force a timid driver forward into the box

Equally we only need to look at the regs (6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a) at a junction between two or more roads;

Again not to much of a stretch to make the argument that once over the centre line this is not the case

Although the authorisation will need to be debunked

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3529.pdf

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 30 May 2018 - 22:23


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