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box junction in newham, contravention-31j entering a box junction whilst prohibited (camera en
victim77
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 03:06
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Hi everyone,
i was travelling towards canning town on barking road in newham. due to the light changing the car in front of me stopped at the lights, as i was following close behind it meant i entered the junction and was unable to get out of the box due to the car infront of me.
i know i am not meant to enter the junction unless the exit was clear but because the lights changed the car ahead of me stopped and the only way i could stop safely without braking really harsh was to continue.
the council has sent me a pcn through the post. i will post up the council pictures and video.

any help would be much appreciated


View My Video





The box junction is very small, and straight after it are traffic lights which newham has conveniently left out of the video and pictures






This post has been edited by victim77: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 18:53
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post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 03:06
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 06:29
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Bang to rights on the stoppage and over 12 seconds so de minimis cannot apply.

The fact that the yellow box does not meet the kerb might be a possible ground. It was under the TSRGDs 2002 but whether the TSRGDs 2016 allow the same interpretation needs to be researched.

Here's a Redbridge case:-

2160334846

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Barley Lane at 1.28pm on 11 April 2016.

Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It is an offence to enter the box without a clear exit and to then stop in the box due to stationary vehicles in front.

Paragraph 7(2) states that this prohibition does not apply to any person causing a vehicle to enter a box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of making a right turn out of the box and stopping the vehicle for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn.

I have reviewed the CCTV footage in this case. This shows that Mrs B's car was stopped to make a right turn out of the box. The vehicle ahead of her car had stopped in traffic, just clear of the box. Whilst I accept that the vehicles in front had technically completed the right turn, it would make a nonsense of Regulation 7(2) for the right turn exemption not to apply just because the next vehicle making the right turn manages to clear the box rather than having to stop within it. The Paragraph 7(2) exemption therefore applies.

I also agree with the submission made by Mrs B that the markings of the box are not compliant with the requirements of Diagrams 1043 and 1044 in Schedule 6 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

Having looked at the markings, I am satisfied that there is substantial non-compliance in that the edges of the box do not come close to meeting the kerb line. The Council has produced no evidence of authorisation from the Secretary of State for a variation to the permitted markings.


Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 09:46
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 06:29) *
Bang to rights on the stoppage and over 12 seconds so de minimis cannot apply.

The fact that the yellow box does not meet the kerb might be a possible ground. It was under the TSRGDs 2002 but whether the TSRGDs 2016 allow the same interpretation needs to be researched.

Here's a Redbridge case:-

2160334846

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Barley Lane at 1.28pm on 11 April 2016.

Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It is an offence to enter the box without a clear exit and to then stop in the box due to stationary vehicles in front.

Paragraph 7(2) states that this prohibition does not apply to any person causing a vehicle to enter a box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of making a right turn out of the box and stopping the vehicle for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn.

I have reviewed the CCTV footage in this case. This shows that Mrs B's car was stopped to make a right turn out of the box. The vehicle ahead of her car had stopped in traffic, just clear of the box. Whilst I accept that the vehicles in front had technically completed the right turn, it would make a nonsense of Regulation 7(2) for the right turn exemption not to apply just because the next vehicle making the right turn manages to clear the box rather than having to stop within it. The Paragraph 7(2) exemption therefore applies.

I also agree with the submission made by Mrs B that the markings of the box are not compliant with the requirements of Diagrams 1043 and 1044 in Schedule 6 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

Having looked at the markings, I am satisfied that there is substantial non-compliance in that the edges of the box do not come close to meeting the kerb line. The Council has produced no evidence of authorisation from the Secretary of State for a variation to the permitted markings.


Mick


TSRGD 2016 is much more forgiving as regards layout of the box

Schedule 9 part 6 item 25 gives minimum dimensions then part 8(5) says " The overall shape and size of the road marking, within the overall dimensions shown, may be varied as appropriate"
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victim77
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 19:06
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To be clear my car is the black bmw which stops behind the red car.
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victim77
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 18:50
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Hi there everyone, can anyone advise me on how i can appeal this pcn?
as you can see from the video i was forced to stop in the box by the car infront of me, on the left lane a whole bus manages to fit in the space before the the traffic light, technically it's a pelican crossing and after the box junction, my contravention appears to be similar to another gentleman on this forum who got a ticket where he was forced to stop because of the car in front.

the traffic light is a few metres ahead of the box junction and due to the light changing the car ahead of me not only stopped but stopped with plenty of room infront of his vehicle, forcing me to stop just behind him with half my car still in the box junction. my car is the black bmw, which stops behind the red vehicle on the right of the bus. Do i have any chance of contesting this pcn and winning? and if so how would i phrase my appeal.

Any help would be much appreciated

This post has been edited by victim77: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 18:55
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victim77
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 19:06
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Picture of the junction showing the pelican crossing, it is a very small box junction which seems to cover only one side of the road and the not the other, not sure if that makes a difference

This post has been edited by victim77: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 19:07
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Incandescent
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 23:16
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The whole point about having to stop because the car in front stopped after the box thus leaving you no room to exit is the whole purpose of the yellow box !

At the point you enter the box you must have a space available for you on the other side. It is very unwise to just follow someone into the box. As you put it "I was following close behind" - fatal ! However you may get an adjudicator who is sympathetic to your argument that the car stopped far short of the space available to him thus preventing you exiting. It will be a gamble however, and for the full £130 too, the discount will have gone.

From what you say, I can't see any win based on the contravention but maybe there is a fatal error in the PCN. YBJs are now a major source of dosh for London councils.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 23:18
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victim77
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 02:55
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 23:16) *
The whole point about having to stop because the car in front stopped after the box thus leaving you no room to exit is the whole purpose of the yellow box !

At the point you enter the box you must have a space available for you on the other side. It is very unwise to just follow someone into the box. As you put it "I was following close behind" - fatal ! However you may get an adjudicator who is sympathetic to your argument that the car stopped far short of the space available to him thus preventing you exiting. It will be a gamble however, and for the full £130 too, the discount will have gone.

From what you say, I can't see any win based on the contravention but maybe there is a fatal error in the PCN. YBJs are now a major source of dosh for London councils.


sad.gif
yellow box junctions are everywhere. if i appeal and lose will i not get the opportunity to pay the reduced amount?

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Incandescent
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 09:21
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QUOTE (victim77 @ Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 02:55) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 23:16) *
The whole point about having to stop because the car in front stopped after the box thus leaving you no room to exit is the whole purpose of the yellow box !

At the point you enter the box you must have a space available for you on the other side. It is very unwise to just follow someone into the box. As you put it "I was following close behind" - fatal ! However you may get an adjudicator who is sympathetic to your argument that the car stopped far short of the space available to him thus preventing you exiting. It will be a gamble however, and for the full £130 too, the discount will have gone.

From what you say, I can't see any win based on the contravention but maybe there is a fatal error in the PCN. YBJs are now a major source of dosh for London councils.


sad.gif
yellow box junctions are everywhere. if i appeal and lose will i not get the opportunity to pay the reduced amount?

First you have to appeal to the council. They normally re-offer the discount if your reps are received by them within the discount period, but are not under a legal obligation to do so. They invariably reject such appeals, and then the discount is lost if you take them to London Tribunals. Frankly you have very thin gruel for an appeal. If it were me, I'd not risk it.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 09:23
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stamfordman
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 09:58
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+1 I would pay the discount. Too much in the box and cutting off sight lines for cars turning right.

I know you feel hard done by but most of us driving in London get one of these at some point but the trick is never to get a second.
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victim77
post Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 04:20
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Thank you very much guys, some very good advice, and i appreciate it. Going to pay up and hopefully never get another. You guys are great and i want to thank everyone again for taking the time to read my post and posting the helpful replies.


just wanted to ask one last question, does it make any difference that the car infront of me was still in motion, when i entered the box? i.e he was not stationary.

This post has been edited by victim77: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 06:07
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stamfordman
post Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 09:38
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QUOTE (victim77 @ Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 04:20) *
just wanted to ask one last question, does it make any difference that the car infront of me was still in motion, when i entered the box? i.e he was not stationary.


No. The contravention is when you are forced to stop in the box owing to stationary traffic in front. You have to anticipate that a car in front may well stop and prevent your exit.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 19 Nov 2017 - 13:53
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As an aside and not material to this thread but to another which is current, see where the box ends, exactly where it should i.e. at the limits of the junction, and not continue arbitrarily along the length of carriageway.
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