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"Urban Clearway" Never hered of it! Ticket no Yellow Lines, NOBODY knows what the clerway sign means Can I fight this?
prentboy
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 23:58
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Hi all I've been given a ticket today despite there not being any yellow lines or yellow parking plate display thing. There was a sign nearby that apparently means "Clearway" I feel this is really harsh and was wondering if I can fight it.
I have attached 2 photos. I was parked where you see the red cross in the pics.

Some locals said about 20 people a day are being ripped off on this 30 yard stretch of road.

This may be the letter of the law but it certainly doesn't feel like it's in the spirit of the law.

Can I fight this?

Pic1

Pic2

This post has been edited by prentboy: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 00:00
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post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 23:58
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peterguk
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 00:01
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Signs look clear enough. Just because you didn't know what the sign meant is no defence.

Maybe take a look at the Highway Code for more info on the signs and their meanings?

Post all sides of the PCN.

Have you parked there before?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 00:03


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DastardlyDick
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 00:13
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You look bang to rights on this one and unless there is a fatal flaw in the wording of the PCN - please post it up, PCN No. and Reg. No. obscured/redacted - IMHO would be best advised to pay especially if the 50% discount is still available.
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prentboy
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 00:33
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Thanks guys ticket is here Tic pic

The begining of the number on the bottom half hasnt printed but ok on the top.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 07:05
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Here's the GSV:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7039263,-...3312!8i6656

This is a side road off the A641 which is a proper clearway. The signs in Bradford road indicating the end of the clearway should be at the junction IMO but we have seen this sort of thing in London and Sheffield where quiet side streets are being targeted by CEO's.

I suppose there is a traffic management reason for incorporating side streets into the main clearway programme but I can see why the OP suggests it is a scam.

I cannot see any grounds for cancellation but would certainly have a word with the local councillor.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 08:19
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 07:05) *
Here's the GSV:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7039263,-...3312!8i6656

This is a side road off the A641 which is a proper clearway. The signs in Bradford road indicating the end of the clearway should be at the junction IMO but we have seen this sort of thing in London and Sheffield where quiet side streets are being targeted by CEO's.

I suppose there is a traffic management reason for incorporating side streets into the main clearway programme but I can see why the OP suggests it is a scam.

I cannot see any grounds for cancellation but would certainly have a word with the local councillor.

Mick


TMO looks correct to me what do you think mick (schedule 1.01

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...rdale/CX042.pdf
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 11:21
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Well the OP was in an area of prohibition but I am scratching my head as to the TRO.

The contravention is given as stopping and we have the correct sign which is the red circle with the red cross on a blue background.

However the TRO relates to waiting which IMO requires a different sign --red circle with a single red diagonal.

Really don't want to delve back into the stopping v waiting debate but the TRO/sign issue might be worth pursuing.

Views?

Mick
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Neil B
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:14
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 11:21) *
Well the OP was in an area of prohibition but I am scratching my head as to the TRO.

Is it the right Order?

Thinking maybe Clearway/Red Route type Orders may not be listed?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 13:40
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Certainly quoted as a clearway in the Order which looks to be the right one:-

"from its junction with Bradford Road Diversion (A641) in a south-westerly direction to a point 20 metres north of the northern kerbline of High Street"

In the TSRGDs 2016 the sign used is a Diagram 642 which indicates "No stopping on main carriageway" so the prohibition being in a side road might scupper its use.

Last the Traffic Signs Manual Chapt 3 on clearways indicates:-

"9.1 Signs for waiting and loading prohibitions can be found in section 7. This section deals with signs for the more restrictive prohibition of stopping,except red route signs and markings which are covered separately in section 10."

So there is clearly a distinction between waiting and stopping and the TRO does not provide the stopping prohibition; it states:-

CLEARWAYS

24 Hour Clearway (Schedule 1.01)

3. Save as provided in Article 71 of this Order no person shall, except upon the
direction or with the permission of a civil enforcement officer in uniform, cause or
permit any vehicle to wait in the length of road specified in Schedule 1.01 of this
Order.

Mick
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Neil B
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 14:22
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Ah sorry, I didn't actually read past the initial w/l restriction at top.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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prentboy
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 19:02
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Wow you guys really know your stuff thanks so much. So err...... at the risk of sounding thick err am I stuffed or not?
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Incandescent
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 21:50
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QUOTE (prentboy @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 19:02) *
Wow you guys really know your stuff thanks so much. So err...... at the risk of sounding thick err am I stuffed or not?

I think you're still stuffed, frankly, because you parked-up in the Clearway section. However are the signs at the exact distance from the main road as defined in the TRO ? I have to say the signs seem to be an absurdly long way away from the junction. Whilst it may not have been set-up that way to earn money, it certainly seems like it as you say.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 23:20
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 21:50) *
QUOTE (prentboy @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 19:02) *
Wow you guys really know your stuff thanks so much. So err...... at the risk of sounding thick err am I stuffed or not?

I think you're still stuffed, frankly, because you parked-up in the Clearway section. However are the signs at the exact distance from the main road as defined in the TRO ? I have to say the signs seem to be an absurdly long way away from the junction. Whilst it may not have been set-up that way to earn money, it certainly seems like it as you say.


We could probably construct an argument based on the use of a clearway in this environment rather than an urban clearway

http://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsm/tsm-chapter-03.pdf

Chapter 9

But you would need to risk the full penalty. The saving grace would be you would not have to pay for between 4 and 6 months if you lost so plenty of time to save the difference
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paulajayne
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 09:25
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"from its junction with Bradford Road Diversion (A641) in a south-westerly direction to a point 20 metres north of the northern kerbline of High Street"


If I am reading that right.

Might be worth getting the tape measure out as that look more than 20 metres.

This post has been edited by paulajayne: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 09:26
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hcandersen
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 10:02
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Firstly, signs are placed in these approach roads for the very reason that we often complain about CPZ signs at junctions i.e. too much else is going on for a motorist to notice when they get to the main intersection. And rather like CPZ signs, which like these are gateway signs, they might be all the warning a motorist gets.

So it is proper that these signs are placed where they are - in fact it's not the sign ahead which is the issue, it's the one on its reverse indicating the start and of course the 'end' sign has to be placed with the start sign, hence why 'end' signs are in approach roads i.e. that's where the start signs are.

Having dealt with why, the next question is: are these exactly where they should be?

Only the OP could tell us I think. It's possible that someone has interpreted the TMO to allow for local conditions.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 13:26
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Mr Meldrew
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 11:43
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QUOTE (paulajayne @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 09:25) *
"from its junction with Bradford Road Diversion (A641) in a south-westerly direction to a point 20 metres north of the northern kerbline of High Street"

If I am reading that right.

Might be worth getting the tape measure out as that look more than 20 metres.

That's the way I read it too.

QUOTE
Schedule 1.01, Item 1: Bradford Road (to the north of Commercial Street by-pass) from its junction with Bradford Road diversion (A641) in a south-westerly direction to a point 20 metres north of the northern kerb line of High Street.




Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 3, section 9.3) states, “Its main purpose [24-hour clearway] is to ensure the free flow of traffic on major inter-urban routes, especially dual carriageway roads and single carriageway primary routes.”

Just like 'Item 1' then.

Oh wait... no... look, Item 1 must be a “No through road - 24-hour Clearway”. Or is that a “24-hour Clearway - No through road”?

Must be a TSRGD 2016 thing.



Then again, perhaps both are bonkers.



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stamfordman
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 11:58
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If it's more than 20m north of the High Street it will just make it worse...
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hcandersen
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 13:49
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@Mrmeldrew, you're missing the point.

The signs have to be in place so that they are clearly visible which in the context of the major roads means before the inevitable clutter of national speed limit, give way, roundabout etc. signs.

So they have to be placed in advance which means in these types of road.

So it's not that the road itself warrants this restriction, it's just collateral damage. But sight lines etc. might justify having some type of restriction which might also mean that the authority might not use discretion.

But which authority? Is the EA the authority for the clearway main road? Probably not if it's a trunk road. So do they even understand the purpose of the sign's location?
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