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NCP NTK (Lease Car)
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post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 21:38
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Hi Folks,

Just received the below NTK via my car lease company, so not received my own yet. The covering letter from the lease company did say if they receive an increased demand, they will pay and invoice me, however I have emailed them to inform that the POFA says the parking company can only chase the Keeper, and as I am the Keeper, then they have no obligation now they have passed my info on.

The NTK looks compliant to me, though would like someone more knowledgable to have a look too. The one to me should be identical, in theory....

The ticket was from a Pay and Display, with the driver (not actually me), paid for 2 hours, but overstayed by 17 minutes. we have the original purchased ticket, and the car park is monitored via ANPR, with the purchased ticket having the registration number inputted.

I will await my own NTK for now, but whats the score with NCP? I will also have to have a look at the signs at the weekend.

Thanks in advance.





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post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 21:38
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ostell
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 22:26
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Naughty NCP, calling it an offence. Do nothing until you get your own copy of the Notice to Hirer/Keeper. There is no period of parking stated. The time between the cameras is not parking as the car was still moving, that reduces the 17 minutes over time somewhat, possibly completely if there were problems exiting the car park. Then there is the grace periods for entering and leaving that is in their Code of Practise.

The next hurdle for NCP is what is with the Notice when it gets to you. To hold the keeper liable they need to include the documents defined in 14 (2) (a) of POFA, hardly any of the PPCs do. Without those documents the keeper cannot be held liable.

Come back when you get your own notice and post it on here. You can also calculate if it got to you within the prescribed times.

Check what your hire agreement says. If it talks about charges and paying for fines and penalties then this is none of those, it is a simple speculative invoice and there is nothing in your contract with them that allows them to deduct.
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post Sat, 9 Dec 2017 - 19:29
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OK, so next update.

As I didn't receive a new NTK direct to me, I appealed the NTK on their website on 22nd December, but made it clear it was not an appeal, but a notice to say I am the keeper, and can they please remove the lease companies information, and deal direct with me, so I can deal with the new NTK when they send it in my name.

They didn't reply, so I chased them up via 'contact us', on the 6th December, which got the below reply via email:


Thank you for your letter dated 22nd November 2017. Regarding your correspondence the system has now been updated and data relating to Citroen Contract Motoring has been removed. You can now appeal the notice with any evidence you have and this will be investigated.


So, it looks like they have done what I requested, and won't carry on writing to the lease company, who would likely just pay it.

So, the issue now, is that was sent to me on the 6th December, and they have not sent a new NTK to me, and it looks like they don't intend to. I have had a look on the NCP website to see if I can submit a new appeal, but it says appeal already submitted.

So, whats the next move?

Just ignore, as they cannot hold me as the keeper liable without an NTK? (Hopefully they won't return to writing to the lease company)

or

Notify them, so they can reset the appeal process. Any subsequent appeal to POPLA should win with no NTK in my name. This may avoid doing the same but in court many months in the future?


So, is it best to try and get to POPLA to win, or leave to risk later court hassle?
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ostell
post Sat, 9 Dec 2017 - 20:11
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You appear to have accepted luability for the NTK, you asked for responsibility for it to be transferred to you and they have. What is going to be the basis of your appeal to POPLA now that you have accepted liability as the keeper? As you have accepted the original NTK it may be too late to ask for the POPLA code.

You were asked to wait for another NTK to be issued which would not comply with POFA, 14 (2) (a). That opportunity may well have gone. I really don't know which way to suggest, other than wait and see what happens.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 - 20:13
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post Sat, 9 Dec 2017 - 20:30
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 9 Dec 2017 - 20:11) *
You appear to have accepted luability for the NTK, you asked for responsibility for it to be transferred to you and they have. What is going to be the basis of your appeal to POPLA now that you have accepted liability as the keeper? As you have accepted the original NTK it may be too late to ask for the POPLA code.

You were asked to wait for another NTK to be issued which would not comply with POFA, 14 (2) (a). That opportunity may well have gone. I really don't know which way to suggest, other than wait and see what happens.


Not sure that I have accepted responsibility for the NTK, the NTK is to the lease company, as they are the registered keeper, all I did was advise them I have been notified of the NTK by the lease company, and that I am the keeper, so for them to write to me with a NTK. I cannot reply to it on the behalf of someone else.

I have had no NTK to tell me what to do, or advise me of the appeals process (a copy was provided by the lease company of their NTK).

My basis of appeal to POPLA will be there is no case to answer, I have not received a NTK, therefore POFA does not apply to me, and they can only pursue the driver, who was not me. The only NTK so far is to the lease company, who they now agree are not the keeper.
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cabbyman
post Sat, 9 Dec 2017 - 20:42
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Defeat being snatched from the jaws of victory. Popcorn time!


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The Rookie
post Sun, 10 Dec 2017 - 12:18
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The keeper is just that, and is separate form the registered keeper, unless you give the cr back to them every night the lease company isn't the keeper. Doh I think adequately reflects that.


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post Sun, 10 Dec 2017 - 19:52
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 10 Dec 2017 - 12:18) *
The keeper is just that, and is separate form the registered keeper, unless you give the cr back to them every night the lease company isn't the keeper. Doh I think adequately reflects that.


I am assuming the doh is for NCP.

I know that the keeper is the person who has every day use of the vehical, and is assumed to be the registered keeper, unless they receive evidence it isn't. Its clear in POFA.

They wrote to the registered keeper, who gave them my details. They ignored that and sent no NTK to me, meaning they likely would continue to write to the RK, who would just pay it and add it to my monthly bill. I needed to avoid that.

All I have done is make sure they don't do that, and they have now agreed that I am the keeper, and they have removed the registered keepers details. Now they can only pursue me as keeper, providing they meet POFA. With no NTK to me, I fail to see how that can do that....



QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sat, 9 Dec 2017 - 20:42) *
Defeat being snatched from the jaws of victory. Popcorn time!


I don't understand, how is notifying them I am the keeper mean defeat, when I had won. Not doing so would have just meant they continued to write to the lease company, who would have paid, and charged me for the privilege, hardly winning.

Or have I read it wrong?
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post Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 13:02
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Anyone else got any advice on this?

I have still not received a ntk since NCP accepted I am the keeper, and I still cannot appeal due to already doing so to tell them I was the keeper.
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ostell
post Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 13:55
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The only way forward here is to just wait for your own NTK. Tell the lease company what you are doing and tell them that you will not pay any charges added to your account if the parking company continue to send them invoices when they have no liability. They have no liability because they named you as the keeper.

There is a time limit for the NTK to be delivered to you. It is the sum of all the times given in POFA. There's an exercise for you.
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nosferatu1001
post Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 15:28
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You’re at their control now, unless you try a complaint to the BPA.
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post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 15:05
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 15:28) *
You’re at their control now, unless you try a complaint to the BPA.


In what respect am I in their control? They know I am the keeper, as disclosed by the lease company and confirmed by me.

I need a NTK for me to know what to do next. I don't see how they could use pofa to pursue me in court without a valid ntk?

I believe that pofa gives them 28 days to provide a ntk, 28 days after the offence, we are over that now.

Am I missing something simple that means I'm fecked?
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ostell
post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 15:29
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You are mis reading POFA. With no windscreen ticket they have 14 days to get the NTK to the lease company. The lease company then have 28 days to return the hirer details to the PPC. The PPC then has 21 days to issue a notice to Hirer. It's all in paragraphs 13 and 14 of POFA schedule 4.
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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 17:36
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QUOTE
Am I missing something simple that means I'm fecked?


Never fecked against NCP!

http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/National_Car_Parks.html

but they said:

QUOTE
Thank you for your letter dated 22nd November 2017. Regarding your correspondence the system has now been updated and data relating to Citroen Contract Motoring has been removed. You can now appeal the notice with any evidence you have and this will be investigated.


So why didn't you? Appeal? I would, online. NOW.


Use the sort of wording written by Dennis Basher several times on lease hire threads. Get it in online mow, you want to win this so appeal. You said yourself the contact you made 'wasn't an appeal'.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 19:57
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You’re in their control as unless you have a popla code t9 get this cancelled, or complain to the BPA to get this cancelled, you’re goi g to not be able to force this to be progressed.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 27 Dec 2017 - 08:58
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No one's demanding anything from the OP, neither the lease company nor NCP.

What standing has the OP in this matter? None yet that I can see.
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post Fri, 29 Dec 2017 - 14:06
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 27 Dec 2017 - 08:58) *
No one's demanding anything from the OP, neither the lease company nor NCP.

What standing has the OP in this matter? None yet that I can see.


That's kind of what I was thinking. I assumed they didn't send me a ntk, so they could continue to write to the lease company, who would eventually just pay. Hence my making sure they were aware I was the keeper.

As per schoolrunmums recommendation, I will reply to the last email from them which said they have removed the lease comps details, and I should appeal. I will say can they reset the appeal portal. Then I was thinking of a bland appeal, hoping for a popla code, which I would appeal saying no ntk, so cannot be held liable. Unless anyone thinks that's a bad idea, and I should just wait?
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s360
post Fri, 29 Dec 2017 - 14:40
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I'm kinda with hcanderson on this. I dont see how informing them that they should contact you and not the hire company removes their obligation to send you a compliant ntk. Personally i would simply wait until they send a rejection then appeal to popla stating no valid ntk which should be an easy win. If the window for them to send a compliant ntk is still open (63 days??) then i would simply wait. if past the date then an appeal might generate a popla code and would put you back in control somewhat i guess.

This post has been edited by s360: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 - 14:41
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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 29 Dec 2017 - 23:37
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Appeal to get the POPLA code, it's about playing the game to win.
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cabbyman
post Sat, 30 Dec 2017 - 15:02
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+1


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