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PCN at Pizza Hut - Disabled Bay - Please Help!, PCN at Pizza Hut - Disabled Bay - Please Help!!!
rsk_1
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 21:28
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Hello everyone,

Just wanted to say what a great community this is – people helping others with great advice on challenging PCN’s and stopping these cowboy’s getting away with daylight robbery!!

Oh, also I have read that some undercover employees for these robbing companies check these sites so I will not be confirming who the driver was….

I am here to ask for anyone’s help and advice as we have received a PCN (or should I say invoice) for parking in a disabled bay at our local Pizza Hut!
Below is a picture from google maps which shows the front car park and I have circled the bay in red that we parked in:

Attached Image



I understand we are at error here for parking in the disabled bay, however I can assure you it was an honest mistake. The driver went here to collect an order for the family and it was around 10pm and the car park was very dark and the bay marking of the disabled symbol was extremely faded.
Also, we have parked many times in the other two bays next to this one and they are NOT disabled bays.
We genuinely only thought there was the one disabled bay (the one next to where we parked)

The following day from received the PCN the driver went back to the car park just to take a few pics for you guys to see clearly. So where the white car is parked below is the bay the driver was parked in.

Attached Image



Another problem we understand is that there is a sign on the post which explains the issuing of fines. Below is a clear picture explaining what the sign says:


Attached Image



As can be seen, the company are called Park Watch and they are a member of the BPA. It says they are a division of Defence Systems Limited.

This is a picture the ticket person must of took of the car at the time of contravention (which is when we went to pick up the pizza) as it is part of the photo evidence when viewing the PCN online. I dont think we have a chance of fighting this as if you look at the picture they took - it clearly shows us in front of the sign...

Attached Image


Basically the car was parked in an arena shopping centre which is a public car park however as per the PCN – it states that the vehicle was parked on Private property and in contravention of the site parking reservations.
The reason for the ticket states: parking in disabled bay without clearly displaying a valid BB.

We have 14 days to pay at £60 (how kind of them) otherwise it will increase to £100 and if still not paid – then transferred to a debt recovery agent!!!

On the PCN it explains we can e mail them to appeal and it also explains to allow 35 days for a decision. If the appeal is unsuccessful you will be provided contact details of POPLA and a unique appeal reference.
From searching forums I have read to go along the route of appealing with something to do with POPLA after a certain period of time, however the main thing we are really worried about is that IF we go past the 14 days, the PCN will be payable at £100.

It states if POPLA reject your appeal you will still have to pay the full £100??

The problem is that the car belongs to my mother who is the registered keeper and she is quite old and anxious, she is now retired and doesn’t like any stress or problems in life. She just wanted the driver to take her car to pick up some food for the family.

This is why we are worried that if we leave the PCN to escalate, then it will make matters much worse and make the fine higher and it will all be in her name as the keeper of the vehicle? Also i have read a lot of threads where people say just ignore all letters - even when they go to debt recovery etc.. But what IF they actually are legitimate debt agents and IF it does actually go to a small claims court?? I understand then a CCJ would be issued and we really cant afford for our mother to get a CCJ over this silly ticket.
We would love to avoid paying the fine, and getting it cancelled or something and we would even ignore all letters just as long as it didnt affect my mothers credit rating (with a CCJ) or anything in her name...

Sorry for such a long message guys, just hoping for some sound advice from anybody who has been in the same situation (parking notice for being in disabled bay in private land).

Also on the company’s website it specifies that even if you had a blue badge displayed and make an appeal saying that it fell down when closing the door and sent the BB evidence, they still would NOT consider this. So I’m guessing they are quite strict with their appeals…

Anyway, once again sorry it’s such a long message and PLEASE somebody help us try and win this case.

Thank you for listening,


Ricky
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post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 21:28
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ostell
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 22:10
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Can you post up the PCN, with personal and identifying details redacted. Front and back please.
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rsk_1
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 07:27
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Hello, for some reason it is not allowing me to upload the PCN - it says attachment space used 1.7MB but i havent attached anything to this message? So i only have 256K to upload and the pic size is larger than this

ostell, i tried to PM you however it says your inbox was full so it wouldnt send
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ostell
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 09:07
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So you post your picture on one of the picture hosting site (I wouldn't recommend PhotoBucket) and then post the link for your picture on forum.

The attachment space allowed is the TOTAL space so you already have 2 images uploaded.

The inbox is full, as is the inbox of many contributors, to discourage things being kept off the forum.

Edit: After reading yet another thread where the OP can't upload additional photos I would suggest that people read the stickies first before they complain.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:16
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hexaflexagon
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:06
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You have a basic decision to make. From the tone of your post it sounds as in the final analysis and even if there was an absolute defence - and I'm not saying there is until we see the PCN, you would be reluctant to go to court to defend this.

If that's the case then just reflect on the fact that your mother made a mistake, did unfortunately park in a disabled bay without a permit and pay the PCN.
If however you are prepared to go to court to defend it - assuming you are advised here you have some grounds then follow the advice here. The worst case is that you have to pay £100 plus any costs. Provided you pay any judgment awarded against your mother won't end up with a CCJ on record.

One point I note is that the sign does not say you can't park in a disabled bay.
It says Vehicles displaying Current Valid (presumanly ID - difficult to read) MAY park in these Disabled Bays.
From the signage there is seemingly nothing to prevent anyone parking in a disabled bay. Whether a judge on a bad day in court would ignore the semantics and look to reality is of course the great unknown.

That would form part of my defence. But upload the PCN as requested

Incidentally please don't use the PM facility to contact members for routine advice like this. It's sufficient just to post your Q. here.

This post has been edited by hexaflexagon: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:11
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kommando
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:12
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I read it as her mother is the keeper and not the driver, so if POFA2012 is no followed correctly by the PPC then a POPLA appeal will succeed but without seeing the paperwork its speculation.
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rsk_1
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:24
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Thank you so much for your replies now guys smile.gif

As requested I have uploaded the front and back of the ticket, here are the links:


https://ibb.co/ffwx8R
https://ibb.co/n28Na6


With the court situation, it just scares me a little as I have never been in such a situation to know what to do. Any advice (in simple terms lol) would be great as I haven't a clue about legal terms etc.


Thank you once again
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hexaflexagon
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:48
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That picture is of a notice attached to the car. Wait until you get the PCN to the Keeper through the post and then upload that.
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rsk_1
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:57
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Ok great, but just wondering, if I wait for the PCN to be sent in the post to the keeper, will this not mean the PCN would be at £100 and never at 60 again?
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ostell
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 11:02
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OK, this is nowhere near court. I would suggest that someone (not the driver) appeal this just before the last day for appeals, say on day 24. They may try and save themselves £2.50 by not getting the registered keeper details from the DVLA as they think they have the details they require. To hold the keeper liable they have to send a Notice to Keeper after day 28 and before day 56. If they fail to deliver a notice to keeper within this period or do not contact the DVLA for the details then they cannot hold the keeper liable, only the driver who they do not know and you will not be telling them. The person appeals about the unclear wording on the sign, the not visible symbols on the bay, the unclear surroundings of the bay. They should reply and give you a POPLA code that you have to use within 28 days. This should take you past day 56 so they cannot issue a POFA valid Notice to Keeper and can only hold the driver, who they do not know, liable.

Do not identify the driver. Post up the appeal for critique before you send.

I've got a BB myself and get annoyed with people using the spaces but I can see why you get confused. There is not those hatched areas on both sides of the space, the BB holder, the one that needs extra space, is not necessarily the driver.
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kommando
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 11:09
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Ostell +1.
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rsk_1
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 15:47
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ok thank you for your help, i guess I shall wait then and upload the notice when it arrives smile.gif
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kommando
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 16:18
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No, you have 2 choices,

1. appeal before the NTK arrives as detailed in Ostells post or

2. wait for the NTK.

1. has the advantage that if they fail to access the DVLA and do not issue a NTK its a 100% guaranteed POPLA win.

If they do still raise a NTK in time then you go to 2. ie hope they get something wrong in making the keeper liable.
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rsk_1
post Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 15:37
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Hi Ostell and Kommando,


Thanks for your responses. Basically I just want to understand something here please if you can help me...

So today is the 14th day that the PCN is at the discount of £60. Ostell, you suggest somebody appeal (not the driver) before the 28 day period and you say day 24, would it be better to actually appeal say like on day 27 as it is an online appeal anyway so appealing on day 27 will mean it is sent within the 28 days??

When you say they may save themselves £2.50 for the DVLA details, i want to try and understand this please. Do they not always pay and access the DVLA details anyway as they will need to issue a NTK after 28 days?? When do they normally request the DVLA details, is it within the 28 days of appeal??
When you say "as they think they have the details they require", i didnt quite understand this? Because I thought they wouldn't have the details they require if nobody has appealed to them confirming who the driver or RK is anyway??
Sorry, I just want to try and understand about when they try and pay to access the DVLA info, and about this whole appeal just before day 28 etc...

Also, if an appeal is made before day 28, but past day 14, wouldnt this mean the PCN will be £100 as it states if the appeal is rejected, then you will still be liable for the higher amount?? So would that mean if we appeal on day 26 and its rejected, it will be payable at £100??

One last thing, if they have to send a NTK after day 28 but before day 56, that is 28 days for them to send a NTK so isn't that guaranteed that they would due to having 28 days to do so?? And in those 28 days that they have to send the NTK, is that the period of time they also have to get the DVLA info because that seems enough time anyway for them to access it?

Sorry if I sound dumb, I just do not understand it that clearly im sorry to say.

Please let me know asap as today is the last day of 14 days at discount.


Thank you
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kommando
post Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 16:24
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When they apply to the DVLA for keeper details they have to pay the DVLA £2.50, if an appeal comes in before day 28 they like to save the £2.50 but that gives them a problem that you can exploit, there is no keeper liability if they did not apply to the DVLA for the details which will give a guaranteed POPLA win.

You appeal at day 24 to ensure they process the appeal before day 28.

The discounted £60 can be ignored as you will be paying nothing.

Reread post 10 for more details.
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rsk_1
post Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 16:30
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Also, Hello hexaflexagon



On the sign it says ONLY vehicles displaying a current BB may park in these disabled bays, so with the use of the word 'only' wouldn't this be clear enough to specify only BB holders are allowed to park in there?


Many thanks

Thanks for that response,


So if an appeal is made online on day 24, if they reject this appeal, will they respond by day 28 with a rejection? And then on day 29 or 30 or 31 etc can they not then pay the 2.50 and access the RK details from the DVLA which then allows them to send a NTK to the RK before day 56 which will be in time for them??

Also, could anybody please help me with a draft of my appeal or is there anywhere I can go to look at some appeals similar to my case?


Thank you so much

This post has been edited by rsk_1: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 16:25
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hexaflexagon
post Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 17:06
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QUOTE (rsk_1 @ Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 16:30) *
Also, Hello hexaflexagon



On the sign it says ONLY vehicles displaying a current BB may park in these disabled bays, so with the use of the word 'only' wouldn't this be clear enough to specify only BB holders are allowed to park in there?


Thank you so much


Indeed so. That's the point I was making in #5 - (the word 'only' is not visible).
It's a point much overlooked but which is relevant in many cases here. It's a forbidding sign meaning no contract is being offered. By parking in the disabled bay you are trespassing and AIUI only the landowner (or their appointed agent for such a matter) can prosecute for a breach of trespass and that would have to be in a magistrates court.
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kommando
post Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 17:29
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QUOTE
So if an appeal is made online on day 24, if they reject this appeal, will they respond by day 28 with a rejection? And then on day 29 or 30 or 31 etc can they not then pay the 2.50 and access the RK details from the DVLA which then allows them to send a NTK to the RK before day 56 which will be in time for them??


Yes but as you have 28 days to make a POPLA appeal then you do not submit the POPLA appeal until day 56 or the POPLA deadline whichever is sooner.

QUOTE
Also, could anybody please help me with a draft of my appeal or is there anywhere I can go to look at some appeals similar to my case?


The first appeal needs to have no relationship to the POPLA appeal, it can and has been that 'the driver was abducted by aliens', the following POPLA appeal was comprehensive and won. This is a self help forum, you post your version first for critique. The POPLA one is the one you put effort into, the initial PPC one is a short simple one on signage, do not infer the drivers identity, at most 4 sentences.
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rsk_1
post Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 19:08
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Thanks for your responses.


Ok so what you would suggest I do now is wait until day 24, make an appeal online to the PPC - just a short appeal disputing the PCN (not admitting liability as was not driver and wont be enclosing who driver was?) and maybe something simple about the sign not clearly stating we cant park in the disabled bay.

Then get the rejection back perhaps by day 28, and then make an appeal on day 55 to POPLA about the signage, bays etc? Does the POPLA code come with the rejection letter or with the NTK??


Many thanks



QUOTE
So if an appeal is made online on day 24, if they reject this appeal, will they respond by day 28 with a rejection? And then on day 29 or 30 or 31 etc can they not then pay the 2.50 and access the RK details from the DVLA which then allows them to send a NTK to the RK before day 56 which will be in time for them??


Sorry Kommando when I said this I was talking about the appeal to the PPC, not referring to POPLA appeal.
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kommando
post Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 19:40
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Yes they can, its not 100% they will fall for the trap, but the rejection gives you a POPLA code (not the NTK as you should have worked out by now if you had read any other threads) so you are then going to reply on something else which signage would be a good one.
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