PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Parked in a disabled bay but floor signs completely faded
Afcj123
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 12:36
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Feb 2013
Member No.: 60,109



Hi there

My mum has received a parking penalty.

She is already out of the 14 day discount period but I still want to appeal for her. If anyone could help that would be great.

My mum parked in a disabled bay without any knowledge of this and has received a ticket. She paid £1.20 to place a valid ticket for the time she was there.

She has explained to me that she did not know it was a disabled bay as the floor signs are almost not existent.

She also explained that the disabled sign on the pole was pointing with an arrow to the left over her bay which made her think that the bay that she was in was not a disabled bay.

Any help please would be appreciated?

Thanks

This post has been edited by Afcj123: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 12:39
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 32)
Advertisement
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 12:36
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Incandescent
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 21:45
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,378
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



If you have lost the discount, then take it all the way to London Tribunals based on the badly maintained road markings, but it is not a definite win situation, you'll need a sympathetic adjudicator and really need to attend in person to put your case.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 21:46
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Afcj123
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 21:56
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Feb 2013
Member No.: 60,109



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 21:45) *
If you have lost the discount, then take it all the way to London Tribunals based on the badly maintained road markings, but it is not a definite win situation, you'll need a sympathetic adjudicator and really need to attend in person to put your case.


Ok thank you for this, do I have a case also with the arrow pointing left on the disabled sign?

Are you able to help with writing my appeal to the council?

Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nextdoor
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 22:47
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 99
Joined: 20 Jan 2017
Member No.: 89,788



QUOTE
With regards to the disabled sign on the pole that is pointing left - is this not misleading? As it is directing people to assume disabled bays are to the left even though there is one right at the pole (with badly painted markings)


Sadly you are mistaken. If you compare GSV;
https://goo.gl/maps/N7sYRcTCrC92
with the council photo of the sign and look at the position of the Sky dishes in the background, you can see that the timeplate is at the right hand end of the 2 disabled bays at the junction of the P&D bays
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 09:43
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,793
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



What a rag bag of info!!!

No current GSV, no idea where the driver stopped first and then the exact sequence of events, no idea of the current condition of demarcation between the adjacent restrictions etc.

OP, we need to know the exact sequence of events e.g. she pulled in (against the traffic flow, tut, tut) and stopped where? She then got out, looked for the nearest sign ( which your new photos will show), noted the restriction and then???? Bought a ticket, returned to the car without a ticket in order to move forward to allow another driver access, and in so doing crossed the evident or nearly invisible demarcation lines between the restrictions and then purchased a ticket without looking again for a traffic sign which, if the demarcation lines were not clear she had NO obligation to do.

Or, stopped, didn't get out of her car, moved forward, didn't consult any signs etc.

Depending on the sequence she could have a defence. From her we need the exact sequence and from you or her we need photos of the parking place, the locations of the signs and the condition of the demarcation lines.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Afcj123
post Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 14:19
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Feb 2013
Member No.: 60,109



Sorry for the delay in reply to you, I went back to the area to take photos.

The demarcation line is practically non existent. See photos attached


My mum pulled into the bay against the flow of traffic in the bay next to the sign. She then moved forward into the next bay along (disabled) as someone else was indicating to park also. She got out and purchased a ticket. The whole street is p&d which is why mum knew to purchase a ticket. She did not notice that this bay was for disabled due to the faded paint. We have since had a look down the entire length of this road and all other disabled bays have been freshly painted - apart from this one.

Does this clear the confusion up?

Thank you
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 22:51
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,793
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



OP, we asked for clear photos of the transverse demarcation lines between the P&D bays and the disabled bays. The law is clear, IMO.

A motorist stops, sees the parking place markings, looks for and sees the applicable restriction.

This restriction remains in force until the necessary road markings change, in this case transverse white dashed lines. If they're not present then IMO in the circumstances of this case the driver is permitted to rely on the restriction conveyed by the first sign.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Afcj123
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 21:29
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Feb 2013
Member No.: 60,109



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 22:51) *
OP, we asked for clear photos of the transverse demarcation lines between the P&D bays and the disabled bays. The law is clear, IMO.

A motorist stops, sees the parking place markings, looks for and sees the applicable restriction.

This restriction remains in force until the necessary road markings change, in this case transverse white dashed lines. If they're not present then IMO in the circumstances of this case the driver is permitted to rely on the restriction conveyed by the first sign.



Hi please see these photos as I have gone back there again to take some more?

There is basically no line between p&d bay and disabled bay?

What are your opinions having seen these better photos? I must appeal tomorrow in any case

Thank you

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 21:57
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,378
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



QUOTE (Afcj123 @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 21:29) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 21 Nov 2017 - 22:51) *
OP, we asked for clear photos of the transverse demarcation lines between the P&D bays and the disabled bays. The law is clear, IMO.

A motorist stops, sees the parking place markings, looks for and sees the applicable restriction.

This restriction remains in force until the necessary road markings change, in this case transverse white dashed lines. If they're not present then IMO in the circumstances of this case the driver is permitted to rely on the restriction conveyed by the first sign.



Hi please see these photos as I have gone back there again to take some more?

There is basically no line between p&d bay and disabled bay?

What are your opinions having seen these better photos? I must appeal tomorrow in any case

Thank you

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/151147094@N06...eposted-public/


Yes indeed there is almost no line between the P&D and disabled bays, bu the sign is placed exactly where the remnants of the line is, and has arrows indicating where the two separate bays are located left and right of the sign. So this would be a gamble at adjudication, I think. Of course you may win this double-or-quits bet, but it is not certain.

Edit
Sorry, re-read first post and see you're already outside the discount period, so it is now a no-brainer to appeal all the way as the cost remains the same, (the PCN penalty). First you have to wait for the Notice to Owner, appeal that, then if rejected, (almost certain), take them to London Tribunals.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 22:03
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 22:08
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,793
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



The sequence is lines then signs.

A motorist is not under any obligation to look for signs unless directed by lines.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Afcj123
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 22:21
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Feb 2013
Member No.: 60,109



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 22:08) *
The sequence is lines then signs.

A motorist is not under any obligation to look for signs unless directed by lines.



Ok thanks, there is no line.
Shall i still write an appeal to the council?
Can anybody give me an idea of what to write?
Thanks again
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Afcj123
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 13:30
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Feb 2013
Member No.: 60,109



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 22:08) *
The sequence is lines then signs.

A motorist is not under any obligation to look for signs unless directed by lines.



Any advice please on what to write in my appeal?

Thank you
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr Meldrew
post Fri, 1 Dec 2017 - 02:23
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 209
Joined: 31 Aug 2015
From: 19 Riverbank
Member No.: 79,151



Hi, My friend is disabled and I think this parking space is pants. Consider this in anticipation of the NTO:

Dear Sirs,

Penalty Charge Notice xxxxxxx
Vehicle registration number xxxx xxx

I formally appeal the penalty charge on the following ground:

The alleged contravention, “Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge in the prescribed manner”, did not occur.

You should not pursue me for the penalty charge:

  • the parking space does not satisfy Provision 1 in Part 3 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 as regards an alternative type of parking bay reserved for disabled badge holders;

  • for that reason the penalty charge is unenforceable, and the Penalty Charge Notice should never have been issued; and,

  • the public money should be put towards marking a disabled person’s parking bay in the parking space in order to help permitted users more easily find a disabled person’s parking place, and prohibited users more easily stay out;

Regarding the provision referred to above, Part 3 section 1 requires that a restriction or prohibition of a description in column 2 of an item in the Part 4 sign table (“item” being diagram 1028.4, “Alternative types of parking bay”) must be conveyed by road markings of the size, colour and type shown in the diagram in column 3 or that diagram as varied in accordance with the paragraph in Part 5 whose number appears in column 4 of the item.

No variation in accordance with the paragraph in Part 5 whose number appears in column 4, can account for the absence of prescribed demarcation of an alternative type of parking bay in the parking space at issue. This mandatory requirement is conspicuous by its absence in the council’s photographic evidence, and in this appellant’s digital images included with this appeal.

Enc. (list of digital images)

Yours faithfully,

This post has been edited by Mr Meldrew: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 - 03:11
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Afcj123
post Fri, 1 Dec 2017 - 20:58
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Feb 2013
Member No.: 60,109



Thank you very much for this, I really do appreciate it. I am now waiting for the NTO :-)

Will update thread as soon as I get a reply

Thanks again

QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Fri, 1 Dec 2017 - 02:23) *
Hi, My friend is disabled and I think this parking space is pants. Consider this in anticipation of the NTO:

Dear Sirs,

Penalty Charge Notice xxxxxxx
Vehicle registration number xxxx xxx

I formally appeal the penalty charge on the following ground:

The alleged contravention, “Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge in the prescribed manner”, did not occur.

You should not pursue me for the penalty charge:

  • the parking space does not satisfy Provision 1 in Part 3 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 as regards an alternative type of parking bay reserved for disabled badge holders;

  • for that reason the penalty charge is unenforceable, and the Penalty Charge Notice should never have been issued; and,

  • the public money should be put towards marking a disabled person’s parking bay in the parking space in order to help permitted users more easily find a disabled person’s parking place, and prohibited users more easily stay out;

Regarding the provision referred to above, Part 3 section 1 requires that a restriction or prohibition of a description in column 2 of an item in the Part 4 sign table (“item” being diagram 1028.4, “Alternative types of parking bay”) must be conveyed by road markings of the size, colour and type shown in the diagram in column 3 or that diagram as varied in accordance with the paragraph in Part 5 whose number appears in column 4 of the item.

No variation in accordance with the paragraph in Part 5 whose number appears in column 4, can account for the absence of prescribed demarcation of an alternative type of parking bay in the parking space at issue. This mandatory requirement is conspicuous by its absence in the council’s photographic evidence, and in this appellant’s digital images included with this appeal.

Enc. (list of digital images)

Yours faithfully,
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Saturday, 17th February 2018 - 21:21
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.