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Parked in a disabled bay but floor signs completely faded
Afcj123
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 12:36
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Hi there

My mum has received a parking penalty.

She is already out of the 14 day discount period but I still want to appeal for her. If anyone could help that would be great.

My mum parked in a disabled bay without any knowledge of this and has received a ticket. She paid £1.20 to place a valid ticket for the time she was there.

She has explained to me that she did not know it was a disabled bay as the floor signs are almost not existent.

She also explained that the disabled sign on the pole was pointing with an arrow to the left over her bay which made her think that the bay that she was in was not a disabled bay.

Any help please would be appreciated?

Thanks

This post has been edited by Afcj123: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 12:39
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post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 12:36
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peterguk
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 12:48
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Let's see council photos.


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hcandersen
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 13:03
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Paradoxically, her position would have been better had she not paid! After all, if the markings were so bad then why buy a ticket at all, she was just waiting on an unrestricted section of road? By paying, she has implicitly acknowledged that she knew it was a parking place, in which case her obligation was to look for the adjacent sign which must have stated Disabled!

Or did it? Or was this a space in a length of P&D parking places?

Far more info needed.
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Afcj123
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:13
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 13:03) *
Paradoxically, her position would have been better had she not paid! After all, if the markings were so bad then why buy a ticket at all, she was just waiting on an unrestricted section of road? By paying, she has implicitly acknowledged that she knew it was a parking place, in which case her obligation was to look for the adjacent sign which must have stated Disabled!

Or did it? Or was this a space in a length of P&D parking places?

Far more info needed.


Hi there
She paid for a parking ticket yes. My mother explained that she did park in the bay to the right to start off with but another driver also wanted to park so my mum reversed into the bay behind to also allow the other driver to park. She didn’t see the signs on the floor otherwise she would not have parked there. Furthermore the sign adjacent said disabled with an arrow pointing left which made my mum think that the disabled bay was in a different bay to the left. See pics taken after when another car had parked in the same bay - thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:21
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looking at GSV there was a missing post, your photos suggest this has been replaced and the sign in place would lend credence to your account

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.590528,0....3312!8i6656
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Afcj123
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:38
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:21) *
looking at GSV there was a missing post, your photos suggest this has been replaced and the sign in place would lend credence to your account

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.590528,0....3312!8i6656


Hi thank you for pointing this out

Yes it does look as though this sign post has been newly added. Can you let me know how this may lend credence to my account?
Thank you again
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Neil B
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:49
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QUOTE (Afcj123 @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:38) *
Yes it does look as though this sign post has been newly added. Can you let me know how this may lend credence to my account?

It doesn't that I can think but the presence of a second bay helps a bit - and the missing part of dividing line to p&d.

Council pics !


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:05
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The plain fact is that the sign is very badly placed. It is at the start of the disabled bay just after the double-yellows cease. The bay markings are almost totally worn out too. The sign should have been placed at the boundary between the disabled and the other bays with an arrow to indicate direction. However, GSV is July 2016 so maybe not up-to-date. The biggest problem, in fact I call it the Dark Heart of the whole system is that there is no incentive or penalty on councils to make sure signs are not misleading. The worse they are the more money they make because most people just cough-up without a fight. So the few that fight and win can be ignored because the money just keeps rolling in.

If discount option has gone, its now a no-brainer to go to London Tribunals, as the penalty remains the same, so no point in rolling over now.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:06
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:18
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:49) *
QUOTE (Afcj123 @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:38) *
Yes it does look as though this sign post has been newly added. Can you let me know how this may lend credence to my account?

It doesn't that I can think but the presence of a second bay helps a bit - and the missing part of dividing line to p&d.

Council pics !


Yeah it does. Unless the OP is doctoring photos to suit there story. I don't think so. The op's photos show a sign in front of card factory with BB bays and arrow pointing left. Parked in a bey to the right and the road markings are virtually invisible. I think it shows credibility
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Incandescent
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:29
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Further to my last post, it seems GSV is not up-to-date because it doesn't show the sign adjacent to Card Factory. The photo shows a sign placed as I said it should be, at the boundary between the two bays. And it indeed shows arrows to indicate where the disabled bays are. In view of this, I think the OP is bang-to-rights. Whilst the road markings are worn the sign looks quite new and it is the sign that the adjudicator will concentrate on and will be difficult to refute, as it seems clear enough.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:30
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Neil B
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:32
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:18) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:49) *
QUOTE (Afcj123 @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:38) *
Yes it does look as though this sign post has been newly added. Can you let me know how this may lend credence to my account?

It doesn't that I can think but the presence of a second bay helps a bit - and the missing part of dividing line to p&d.

Council pics !


Yeah it does. Unless the OP is doctoring photos to suit there story. I don't think so. The op's photos show a sign in front of card factory with BB bays and arrow pointing left. Parked in a bey to the right and the road markings are virtually invisible. I think it shows credibility

You've lost me there.
Only parked to the right initially, then reversed past sign to wrong side.

I think there should be far clearer demarcation on the road though. In the past it would have needed at least two full width
transverse lines.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:38
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:18) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:49) *
QUOTE (Afcj123 @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 22:38) *
Yes it does look as though this sign post has been newly added. Can you let me know how this may lend credence to my account?

It doesn't that I can think but the presence of a second bay helps a bit - and the missing part of dividing line to p&d.

Council pics !


Yeah it does. Unless the OP is doctoring photos to suit there story. I don't think so. The op's photos show a sign in front of card factory with BB bays and arrow pointing left. Parked in a bey to the right and the road markings are virtually invisible. I think it shows credibility

You've lost me there.
Only parked to the right initially, then reversed past sign to wrong side.

I think there should be far clearer demarcation on the road though. In the past it would have needed at least two full width
transverse lines.


I'm reading that as a response to HCA's post. parked in P&D to the right then reversed into the first what we know to be BB bays but still to the right of the sign

Council piccys will tell
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Neil B
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:48
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Car looks to be by lamp post, left of the sign.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:51
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:48) *
Car looks to be by lamp post, left of the sign.



could be
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Afcj123
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 14:27
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Hi there

Thank you for all your advice so far, I have added the council photos taken from Redbridge website.

Please could you help me with what to write in my appeal?

Thank you in advance

Jade
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nextdoor
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 14:40
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Sorry, I can't see any grounds for appeal.

The rear of your car is right by the timeplate, which you must have walked past twice to and from the ticket machine without bothering to read it. If you had you would clearly have seen that the disabled bays start to the left of the timeplate.

The council will almost certainly reject and I can't see an adjudicator allowing an appeal

Personally I'd pay the discount and make sure you read signs in the future

This post has been edited by nextdoor: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 14:42
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 15:37
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QUOTE (nextdoor @ Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 14:40) *
Sorry, I can't see any grounds for appeal.

The rear of your car is right by the timeplate, which you must have walked past twice to and from the ticket machine without bothering to read it. If you had you would clearly have seen that the disabled bays start to the left of the timeplate.

The council will almost certainly reject and I can't see an adjudicator allowing an appeal

Personally I'd pay the discount and make sure you read signs in the future


Council pics tell all. I cannot see a win
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stamfordman
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 15:53
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The absence of a marked bay is a bit rotten though. The council is reliant only on the post as the demarcation from what I can see.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 16:55
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OP, sorry to put you in this position, it concerning your mother, but you have to challenge her account.

You wrote:
'My mother explained that she did park in the bay to the right to start off with but another driver also wanted to park so my mum reversed into the bay behind to also allow the other driver to park.'


Bay to the right of what? There isn't one. She cannot have bought a ticket before she parked and as I understand it the first sign she should have seen was the one in the photos which would be clear enough to an adjudicator to convey the meaning that the bay to the left is for disabled only.

Now if she meant she drove forward, then she should say so, not that this would necessarily save the day, but we should have the correct account which must address the issue of traffic signs and not just focus on lines.
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Afcj123
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 20:43
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 16:55) *
OP, sorry to put you in this position, it concerning your mother, but you have to challenge her account.

You wrote:
'My mother explained that she did park in the bay to the right to start off with but another driver also wanted to park so my mum reversed into the bay behind to also allow the other driver to park.'


Bay to the right of what? There isn't one. She cannot have bought a ticket before she parked and as I understand it the first sign she should have seen was the one in the photos which would be clear enough to an adjudicator to convey the meaning that the bay to the left is for disabled only.

Now if she meant she drove forward, then she should say so, not that this would necessarily save the day, but we should have the correct account which must address the issue of traffic signs and not just focus on lines.



Hi thank you for being so patient!

I have asked mum to come in and explain clearly what happened again, which she has explained she did drive forward into the bay in front. The original bay that she was in is not a disabled bay. She is explaining that all the disabled bays along this road are clearly painted on the floor except for this one - she has taken photos all along the road.

With regards to the disabled sign on the pole that is pointing left - is this not misleading? As it is directing people to assume disabled bays are to the left even though there is one right at the pole (with badly painted markings)

Obviously we have already missed out on the discounted rate so what do you advise us to do?

Any help would be great, thanks

This post has been edited by Afcj123: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 20:43
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