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Newham - PCN for not clearly displaying a ticket - but i did
mpesm
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:03
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Hoping you can help as this one seems like a no brainer that I can challenge but I want to double check before I do.

I was parked in a permit area and put my visitors ticket on display on my dashboard. I place it in the middle of the dash as previously it has slipped down when i have put on drivers or passengers side because of the way the dash is. But the back of the permit does not specify location other than on display.

I took a photo of it displayed before I left the car (and have the photo on my iPhone which shows the day and time I took it, see below).

Can you think of any other reason why I would have received this as I don't know how the guy could not have seen it.

Thanks in advance!







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post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:03
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Neil B
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:05
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and the Council pics?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:10
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Is the zone correct ?
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nextdoor
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:14
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:10) *
Is the zone correct ?

Yes Ismailia Rd is in Green Street North (GSN):
https://www.newham.gov.uk/Documents/Transpo...rth-RPZ-map.pdf
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stamfordman
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:15
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All looks in order - road is in Green Street North (GSN) zone as included on the permit, which I think is borough wide anyway.

Well done for taking pic - have you had problems before?
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nextdoor
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:20
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Post up the council pics
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mpesm
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:30
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Wow, thanks for the quick replies. it was a paper ticket on the car so no council pics.

I phoned the council and they confirmed i was parked in the correct zone for the permit I had.

Not had issues before but I always take a picture as proof because I just don't trust councils!

This is the response i have drafted. Short and sweet but I think it covers it? Thoughts?

I received a PCN on 7th November when I was parked in Ismailia Street. The charge being I was not clearly displaying my ticket. As you can see from my supporting evidence the ticket was clearing placed and visible in my windscreen as per the T&C’s of the permit ticket.

For that reason this PCN is not enforceable.

I look forward to your confirmation of this by return.

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stamfordman
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:30
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Go here and see if there any pics (but don't pay, obv)

https://payit.newham.gov.uk/payments/sales/...escription=park

CEOs usually take a pic of the served PCN at least.
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spaceman
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:35
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Looks bonkers to me.

Just one thing, the permit looks like it's been completed in pencil and then gone over in ink afterwards.

Was it in ink when displayed?
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mpesm
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:40
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Thanks for that. there are quite a few photos all clearly displaying my ticket. But i think I know what the issue is now. I wrote it in pencil and although it is as clear as anything it does say it has to be in pen!



Guess that's it then.

This post has been edited by mpesm: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:43
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mpesm
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:50
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QUOTE (spaceman @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:35) *
Looks bonkers to me.

Just one thing, the permit looks like it's been completed in pencil and then gone over in ink afterwards.

Was it in ink when displayed?


It was in pencil yes. When I went back to my car to get something and saw I got the ticket I went over in ink just in case it was that but didn't think for one minute it would be.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 14:57
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Oops. Permit clearly says must be completed in ink. In Newham it's unlikely they'll let you off as obviously they are trying to prevent the permits being reused.

You could try though if you are fine upstanding citizen (which I'm sure you are). You can send pic of permit now in ink to show you will not be getting the eraser out.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:01
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mpesm
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:01
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Damn, and the only reason I used a pencil was because I couldn't find my pen! I had to borrow one when I got back to my car and saw the ticket. the paper is so thin that you couldn't re use the ticket anyway. Also, the school i was visiting issue the permit to me and they note down the seriel number so they have a record of the date it was issued.

i think I will still appeal - nothing lost.

Thanks all
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stamfordman
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:07
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Not sure but there may be a code issue - I would say a lower penalty level 19 should have been issued?

"Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time"

Wait for other comment. It was a valid permit but you made it invalid...
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mpesm
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:16
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:07) *
Not sure but there may be a code issue - I would say a lower penalty level 19 should have been issued?

"Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time"

Wait for other comment. It was a valid permit but you made it invalid...


I was googling too to see if the "pencil" fell under this code. It seems harsh for writing in pencil although I know I should have used a pen!

Will hold off for now. Thanks again smile.gif
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Neil B
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:21
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QUOTE (mpesm @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:01) *
the paper is so thin that you couldn't re use the ticket anyway.

It's card, circa 140gsm and unaffected by erasers, i.e. colour is built in, not a surface coat.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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mpesm
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:25
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:21) *
QUOTE (mpesm @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 15:01) *
the paper is so thin that you couldn't re use the ticket anyway.

It's card, circa 140gsm and unaffected by erasers, i.e. colour is built in, not a surface coat.


I guess what I mean is you would have to write so lightly in order to reuse the ticket.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 21:53
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Pen v pencil. Who cares? I am confident that the traffic order would NOT refer to this distinction, therefore it doesn't exist in law, but only in the minds of pedantic CEOs.

The only requirement would be to display a permit whose details were visible from outside the car.

IMO, this is the only legal test and only the photos would show whether you had complied, so pl get them.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 21:54
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mpesm
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 11:34
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 21:53) *
Pen v pencil. Who cares? I am confident that the traffic order would NOT refer to this distinction, therefore it doesn't exist in law, but only in the minds of pedantic CEOs.

The only requirement would be to display a permit whose details were visible from outside the car.

IMO, this is the only legal test and only the photos would show whether you had complied, so pl get them.


Thank you.

Below are their photos.





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hcandersen
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 13:10
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When you challenge, just state the facts:
I parked in a GSN Permit bay at 9.28am on 7 November ;
I completed the permit as required and placed on the dashboard so that all details were visible from outside the car - see the authority's photos;

As I was permitted to park at the location at the time of the alleged contravention, then clearly the CEO has made a mistake and I look forward to receiving confirmation that the PCN has been cancelled.
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