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Euro Car Parks - PCN, how do I write an appeal letter without admitting driver
WetJeans
post Fri, 20 Oct 2017 - 09:29
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Hi,

I've been reading through the forum to try and see how to approach the attached PCN that I received from Euro Car Parks. So this is absolutely the driver's mistake (probably), he saw no signage at all and it's too far for the driver to go back and check it out to see what the signage looked like. It seems that these Euro Car Parks tickets go away if appealed.

That said, it was a Friday afternoon between 5-6pm and chocker with rush-hour traffic. This site is actually a fuel station with a Sainsbury's store. The driver had to wait in a big queue to get fuel, so wasn't actually parked, and then went and purchased some food and used the toilet. The driver was also with a disabled child which also adds more time. Do they need to prove that the driver was parked rather than waiting in a queue for fuel?

Does the driver have grounds for appeal?

I've read that the appeal letter should not implicate who the drive was at the time. Any advice on how to write an appeal letter without implicating the driver?

Any other advice greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

This post has been edited by WetJeans: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 - 10:11
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post Fri, 20 Oct 2017 - 09:29
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kommando
post Fri, 20 Oct 2017 - 09:41
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The letter is simple,

You appeal stating you are the keeper, and you describe the actions that took place in the car park as being performed by 'The Driver', so the driver parked, the driver purchased a ticket. The disabled child is a occupant of the car and so enjoys the right for favourable adjustments.

This post has been edited by kommando: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 - 10:18
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WetJeans
post Fri, 20 Oct 2017 - 10:14
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QUOTE (kommando @ Fri, 20 Oct 2017 - 10:41) *
As practise edit your post to remove inference as to the drivers identity.

The letter is simple,

You appeal stating you are the keeper, and you describe the actions that took place in the car park as being performed by 'The Driver', so the driver parked, the driver purchased a ticket. The disabled child is a occupant of the car and so enjoys the right for favourable adjustments.


Thank you for your reply. I've edited my previous post.

So just to be clear, there is no problem with me stating that I've communicated with "The Driver", but I'm not obliged to say who this is and I don't become liable?
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kommando
post Fri, 20 Oct 2017 - 10:18
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Correct, no obligation at all.

The keeper has grounds to appeal, the driver is not appealing, and no need to identify the sex of the driver.
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Bucket
post Sun, 22 Oct 2017 - 09:42
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2 working days after 26/9 would have been 30/9. 15 days after the alleged parking. This makes the NTK non POFA complient. The registered keeper has no liability.

This post has been edited by Bucket: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 - 09:43
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ostell
post Sun, 22 Oct 2017 - 10:50
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26/9 Tuesday 28/9 still within. You're looking at the wrong month in your calendar.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 - 10:51
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Bucket
post Sun, 22 Oct 2017 - 11:10
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 22 Oct 2017 - 11:50) *
26/9 Tuesday 28/9 still within. You're looking at the wrong month in your calendar.


You're right. My bad.
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cabbyman
post Sun, 22 Oct 2017 - 13:55
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My thrashing of them from last year:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=107154

Use that as a guide and post your initial appeal to ECP on here for checking. They will reject but will provide a POPLA code. You then adapt my POPLA appeal to your circumstances and post it on here, again, for critique before you submit it. They will probably not offer evidence in response.


--------------------
Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 22 Oct 2017 - 20:55
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Even if popla refuse your appeal, no one cares. It’s ECP. You just ignore them, they don’t do court
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WetJeans
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 00:38
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So I sent off the appeal letter and they rejected it as expected. I've also included a google streetview of the place where the incident supposedly took place. As you can see there is a petrol station and then parking along the side of the Spar. It's a Sainsburys now. So the infringement took place on a Friday afternoon at rush hour. The driver had to wait ages to get petrol and this contributed to being on the site for an extended period of time and going over the 45mins. So my point is that they can't actually prove that the driver was actually parked for the whole period.

What do I need to send to the POPLA appeal to show that it's feasible that the driver wasn't parked the whole time and was in fact waiting to buy fuel?

Or am I worrying about this too much - should I just send one of the standard appeal letters? I copied the one below from another post to make the appeal directly to ECP, shall I just use this again with some amendments for the POPLA appeal?

Cheers.


----------------------

Dear Sirs,

XXYYXXX
Ref Number: 8888XXXXXX
Issued by Euro Car Parks Limited (ECP)

As the registered keeper of the above vehicle, I wish to appeal the parking charge notice you issued against it. I would like to have the parking charge notice cancelled based on the following grounds:

1) No keeper liability
2) BPA Code of Practice - non-compliance to guidelines
3) No evidence of period parked
4) No landowner authority
5) Lack of signage- unclear signage
6) The ANPR system is neither reliable nor accurate


1) No keeper Liability - The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012, was served too late and no 'Notice to Driver' was served whilst the car was stationary.

Although Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) gives a creditor the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from a vehicle’s keeper, this right is strictly subject to statutory conditions being met by the operator, without which the right to 'keeper liability' does not exist.

I set out below the requirements for a 'Notice to Driver' as set out in Schedule 4 which clearly requires either:

- Under paras 7 & 8: a windscreen PCN (in person, issued on the car before it leaves the site) followed by a postal 'Notice to Keeper' served no sooner than 29 days later,

OR

- Under paragraph 9: a compliant postal 'Notice to Keeper' to be served within 14 days of the event.

Neither of these two mandatory routes were followed in this case. Paragraph 7 states:

7(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to driver for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

(4)The notice must be given—

(a)before the vehicle is removed from the relevant land after the end of the period of parking to which the notice relates, and

(b)while the vehicle is stationary,

by affixing it to the vehicle or by handing it to a person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle.


No such Notice to Driver was served. Instead, a hybrid document the operator called a 'PCN' was posted. This neither matched the mandatory requirements of paragraph 7 as a 'Notice to Driver' (because it was posted, not served whilst the vehicle was stationary) nor does it meet the strict requirements of paragraph 9 if it was intended to be a 'Notice to Keeper' (NTK).

It is clear that - notwithstanding the incorrect and missing statutory wording for a NTK - the operator does not in any event, intend this to be taken to be a NTK because a month later they then served another postal document, this one WAS called 'Notice to Keeper'. However, as it arrived so late it is too late for keeper liability because in the absence of any windscreen PCN, any NTK must arrive by day 14 after the parking event. The late timing and non-compliant wording of this NTK is fatal for 'keeper liability'.

In terms of wording:

- Contrary to the requirements of Paragraph 9(2)(b), the Notice to Keeper did not inform the keeper that: ''the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full''. BOTH the above prescribed requirements must be stated in the NTK and they were not.

- Contrary to the requirements of Paragraph 9(2)(e), the Notice to Keeper did not state that: ''the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper: ... to pay the unpaid parking charges; or ... if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver''

- The NTK fails in the prescribed requirement - in exact words and with the correct deadline - to: ''warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given— ...the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and ...the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid''

- Contrary to the requirements of Paragraph 9(2)(i) the Notice to Keeper does not specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case). A date of preparing or batching of NTKs ready for mailing later by iMail is often stated by BPA AOS members, misleadingly, as a 'date of issue' or similar. This fails the requirement to state the date SENT or GIVEN, neither of which are defined as the date the document was drawn up by back office staff, several days before they actually put the NTK in the post via Royal Mail.

In any case, as explained above, the document described as a 'NTK' arrived a month too late - as if it was one which followed a windscreen PCN - yet this operator has failed to apply any windscreen Notice to Driver. Consequently, ECP has forfeited its right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

If ECP should try to suggest that there is any method outwith the prescribed statute (POFA 2012) whereby a registered keeper can be held liable for a charge where a driver is not identified, I would remind them of the words of Mr Henry Greenslade, the 2015 POPLA Chief Adjudicator who ensured consistency of decisions since 2012, whereby POPLA never found against a registered keeper where a clearly non-POFA Notice to Keeper was served, as in this case.

The Lead Adjudicator reminded operators (and his team of Assessors, in their training) of the following facts about a keeper's right not to name the driver and, of course, still not be lawfully able to be held liable, under Schedule 4:

www.transportxtra.com/publications/parking-review/news/46154/there-is-no-50-50-rule-for-private-parking-appeals-says-popla-s-michael-greenslade

Understanding keeper liability
“There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver.”

The wording in the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 is as follows:

''Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle: 4(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. (2) The right under this paragraph applies only if—

(a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6*, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met;

*Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4:
6(1) ''The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—

(a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8; or

(b)has given a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 9.

The operator has failed to meet the second condition for keeper liability due to the multiple flaws in the NTK and the lack of any windscreen NTD or PCN served whilst the vehicle was stationary. Therefore, no lawful right exists to claim unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle as they have not met the required conditions within Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012. This too was confirmed by Mr Greenslade, POPLA Lead Adjudicator. in page 8 of the 2015 POPLA Report: ''If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.

2) BPA Code of Practice - non-compliance to guidelines:
The BPA Code of Practice point 20.5a stipulates that: "When issuing a parking charge notice you may use photographs as evidence that a vehicle was parked in an unauthorised way. The photographs must refer to and confirm the incident which you claim was unauthorised. A date and time stamp should be included on the photograph. All photographs used for evidence should be clear and legible and must not be retouched or digitally altered."

The parking charge notice in question contains two photographs of the vehicle number plate. They must clearly show the vehicle entering or leaving the car park as required in the BPA Code of practice. The images may have also been cropped and I invite ECP to produce evidence of the original "un-cropped" images showing the vehicle entering and leaving the car park. The site also includes a petrol station where cars queue to obtain fuel. At the time of the alleged infraction, 5-6pm on a Friday, I think it’s reasonable to assume a large demand for petrol. ECP have failed to show that the driver of the vehicle wasn’t queuing to purchase petrol and not actually parked.

3) No evidence of period parked. The NtK clearly states the vehicle was parked during the relevant period. PoFA2012 Sched 4 Para 9 refers at numerous times to the period of parking. By virtue of the nature of a ANPR system recording only entry and exit times, ECP are not able to definitively state the period of parking. Contrary to the mandatory provisions of the BPA code of practice, there is no record to show that the vehicle was parked longer than the time allowed PLUS the mandatory grace periods. These are a minimum of 10 minutes to leave the car park and a similar period to cover the period after the vehicle parks, finds signage, reads the signage and decides whether to accept or reject the terms offered within. An alleged overstay does not meet the binding code of practice. There is no evidence that the vehicle was ‘parked’ for the entirety of 1hr 3min. Furthermore, the driver entered the site to obtain petrol at approximately 5pm on a Friday, a particularly high demand period. Furthermore, poor organisation of the site leads to inefficient queuing to use the petrol pumps and longer delays, the queuing area is shared by long vehicles that lead to severe disruption.

4)No landowner Authority:

I question ECP’s authority from the landowner, to enforce parking charges regarding alleged breaches at this car park.

BPA CoP paragraphs 7.1 & 7.2 dictate some of the required contract wording. I put ECP to strict proof of the contract terms with the actual landowner (not a lessee or agent who has no more title than the operator). I question ECP’s legal status to enforce this charge because there is no assignment of rights to pursue PCNs in the courts in neither their own name nor standing to form contracts with drivers themselves.

They do not own this car park and appear (at best) to have a bare licence to put signs up and ‘ticket’ vehicles on site, merely acting as agents on behalf of a principal. No evidence has been supplied lawfully showing that ECP is entitled to pursue these charges in their own right in the courts which is a strict requirement within the BPA CoP. I suggest that ECP are certainly not empowered by the landowner to sue customers and visitors in a free of charge car park and that issuing 'PCNs' by post is no evidence of any right to actually pursue charges in court.

In addition, Section 7.3 of the CoP states:

“The written authorisation must also set out:

a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined
b) Any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
c) Any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
d) Who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs
e) The definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.''

I put ECP to strict proof of compliance with all of the above requirements.

This is vital; I contend that the contract - if this operator produces one - does not reflect the signage and if only a basic agreement or 'witness statement' is produced, then this will fail to demonstrate compliance with 7.3 (in particular, point b and d, above).

This would destroy any attempt by this operator to argue there is a Beavis-case-style 'legitimate interest' backed by any commercial justification and wishes of the landowner to sue customers after just 1 hour in a car park.
I require ECP to provide a full copy of the contemporaneous, signed & dated contract with the landowner showing evidence to meet 7.3 of the CoP. In order to comply, a non-landowner private parking company must have a specifically-worded contract with the landowner – not merely an ‘agreement’ with a non-landholder managing agent – otherwise there is no authority.

5) Lack of signage - unclear signage – no contract with driver - no adequate notice of the charge, maximum stay nor grace period.

The entrance signage was not suitably placed to be read from a distance for a driver in an approaching car whilst manoeuvring into the car park. In fact, at the time of day when the alleged infraction took place, due to high demand, there was probably no route to directly enter the car park due to queuing customers. Furthermore, the words are in a small font and are not legible or intelligible and reading the entirety of the text whilst manoeuvring into the site is dangerous.

The BPA Code of Practice states that- “You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm. “

There were no conspicuous signs throughout the site. I put ECP to strict proof on this point. As well as a site map they must show photographs of the signs as the driver would see them on entering the car park bearing in mind that they may be completely unfamiliar with the area, the approach to the car park, the entrance to the car park, or the layout of the car park. A Notice is not imported into the contract unless brought home so prominently that the party ‘must’ have known of it and agreed terms. If the driver did not notice any signs; there was no consideration/acceptance and no contract agreed between the parties. Furthermore, as stated, a suitable grace period must be allowed for the driver to find a suitable parking space, find the signs containing the parking terms, (should they be easily located), decide whether to accept these terms and leave the car park in a safe manner.

Furthermore the driver has not been identified and I have no obligation to assist an operator in this regard, even if I was certain which of several drivers could have used the car that day. As liability for this charge depends entirely upon this operator fulfilling all requirements of Schedule 4, it is mandatory that the driver(s) are unambiguously and clearly informed of terms and the parking charge itself:

(3) ''For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) “adequate notice” means notice given by — (b)...the display of one or more notices which—

(i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and

(ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land.''

In fact, their signs are not visible from a car seat before parking and the words are completely unreadable and incapable of forming a contract before the act of parking (it is trite law that afterwards - after parking in this case - is too late).

The sign also breaches the BPA CoP Appendix B which effectively renders it unable to form a contract with a driver.

In the Beavis case, the Supreme Court Judge concluded that signs must be in 'large lettering and prominent' and very clear as to the terms by which a driver will later be bound.




6) The ANPR system is neither reliable nor accurate.

The ECP evidence shows no parking time, merely two images of a number plate corresponding with that of the vehicle in question. There is no connection demonstrated whatsoever with the car park in question. To capture a vehicle entering St Johns Road car park and actually crossing the boundary into the land in question, it would appear that the only conceivable location for a camera would be directly across the road from the entrance therefore outside the car park and taken from public land.
In any case it is unreasonable for this operator to record the start of 'parking time' as the moment of arrival in moving traffic. If they in fact offered a pay and display system which the driver can only access after parking, and which is when the actual action and period of parking commences. i.e. when the vehicle is stationary, and when the clock should start from. The exit photo image of the rear number plate cannot be evidence of actual 'parking time' at all, and has not been shown to relate to the same parking event.

Additionally you cannot discount that the driver may have driven in and out on two separate occasions both within the allowable grace period. The BPA even mention this as an inherent problem with ANPR on their website; www.britishparking.co.uk/How-does-ANPR- work

The BPA's view is: 'As with all new technology, there are issues associated with its use. Some ‘drive in/drive out’ motorists that have activated the system receive a charge certificate even though they have not parked or taken a ticket. Reputable operators tend not to uphold charge certificates issued in this manner...'

Additionally under paragraph 21.3 of the BPA Code of Practice, parking companies are required to ensure ANPR equipment is maintained and is in correct working order. I require ECP to provide records with the location of the cameras used in this instance, together dates and times of when the equipment was checked, calibrated, maintained and synchronised with the timer which stamps the photo images to ensure the accuracy of the ANPR images. As the parking charge is founded entirely on 2 photos of the vehicle number plate allegedly entering and leaving the car park at specific times (not shown within the photographic images), it is vital that ECP produces evidence in response to these points.

In addition to showing their maintenance records, I require ECP to show evidence to rebut the following assertion. I suggest that in the case of this vehicle being in that car park, a local camera took the image but a remote server added the time stamps. As the two are disconnected by the internet and do not have a common "time synchronisation system", there is no proof that the time stamp added is actually the exact time of the image. The Operator appears to use WIFI which introduces a delay through buffering, so "live" is not really "live". Hence, without a synchronised time stamp, there is no evidence that the image is ever time stamped with an accurate time. Therefore I contend that this ANPR evidence from the cameras in this car park is just as unreliable and unsynchronised as the evidence put forward in the recent case of ParkingEye v Fox-Jones on 8 Nov 2013. That case was dismissed when the judge deemed the evidence from ParkingEye to be fundamentally flawed because the synchronisation of the camera pictures with the timer had been called into question and the operator could not rebut the point. As its whole charge rests upon two timed photo images, I put ECP to strict proof to the contrary.


There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

I respectfully request that this parking charge notice be cancelled and await your decision.

Yours,

Registered Keeper.

This post has been edited by WetJeans: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 09:08
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 07:29
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Pointless talking about no keeper liability if you identify the driver, like you did in that last post.

EDIT IT NOW
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WetJeans
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 09:11
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 07:29) *
Pointless talking about no keeper liability if you identify the driver, like you did in that last post.

EDIT IT NOW


Thanks for the heads up. I think I've made the changes to the post now.

So, worth while pursuing the "the driver wasn't parked the whole time, the driver was blocked by cars filling up with fuel and the driver was unable to leave the site" or should I just appeal on the general appeal points that come up repeatedly in this forum since ECP have no teeth anyway?
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 11:06
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You can add it - there is no harm in adding those points, as the grace periods cannot be set in general, they must allow for the particular site.
However if you still lose - which is unusual, ECP are barely literate - then just ignore unles they finally break a habit and file and claim or send a letter before action.
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WetJeans
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 13:12
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So I made my appeal and added some photos of the site and just got a reply back from POPLA:


Dear X


Thank you for submitting your parking charge Appeal to POPLA.



An Appeal has been opened with the reference 0000000000.



Euro Car Parks have told us they do not wish to contest the Appeal. This means that your Appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge.



Yours sincerely

POPLA Team




One of the signs above the cashpoint isn't even illuminated. Also, the sign on entry to the sight is blocked by the "In" sign. They are useless. Anyway, really pleased, although this did use about 5 hours of my life that I will never get back.

Many thanks to everyone here for all their help, advice and encouragement. You know to avoid all the hassle I nearly paid the fine.

Cheers.

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