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Dart Charge PCN followed by JBW enforcement letter for a Paid Crossing
raselmahbub
post Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 01:19
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Hi All,

I would really be grateful if someone can help me with my situation.

The contravention date mentioned in the PCN is on 18/12/16. I have checked and the road user charge was actually paid on the same day within the required time.

So I completed the online representation providing the receipt of payment. Didn't receive any reply from dart charge team yet.

Received an enforcement letter asking to pay a total of 190.50 pound from JBW.
Contacted JBW and told them that the road user charge was actually paid and this is probably a mistake by the dart charge team. Also emailed them the payment receipt.

JBW contacted Highway Agency and came back to me with a different date and different reference number for which I never received any PCN/Letter. I told them

"I have not received any PCN in regards to the IA number mentioned in your email. Neither I am aware of any crossing made on the day you have mentioned.

You can not just cite a reference number and ask me to pay without any evidence. The enforcement letter I received from JBW also points to the same reference number for which the PCN was issued. And I have already made it clear to you that the road user charge related to the reference number has been paid on the day of crossing.
As I never received a PCN in regards to the contravention mentioned in your email I am not obliged to pay any amount to you.
"


Now they have come back to me with the following response:"In order to dispute this matter further, we suggest you file an Out of Time Witness Statement
with the Traffic Enforcement Center at Northampton County Court. Please note, we are unable to hold enforcement action in the meantime."


What options do I have now, do I really need to go through this 'Out of Time Witness Statement' thing? Can I just ignore their threat as to my understanding they do not have a case at all.

Many thanks

This post has been edited by raselmahbub: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 01:20
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post Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 01:19
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Neil B
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 22:03
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 22:34) *
Thanks PASRMYBEST,

I do not have a great deal of documents to post. Just one TE3 form "Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge" from TEC which I believe all of you are familiar with (deadline was 5/5/17) and the other one is the enforcement letter from JBW.

Then show them!

-----------------------------
Right.
These e-mails: I think you are misunderstanding.
QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:01) *
JBW replied:
Please be aware that we referred this matter to Highways England who have advised that although you paid Road User Charge on the same day as crossing, you had an outstanding crossing which was given a warning period. The payment went to the prior crossing with the warning period. You needed to have made 2 Road User Charges to cover the crossing for that day, as well as the prior crossing which was under a warning period.

The bit in green is just JBW misunderstanding info from HEDC; you only crossed once, correct?
The rest makes perfect sense: Reasonable as they are, rather than issue a PCN for 29/11, they sent a warning notice extending the time to pay just £2.50
(I'm not ignoring you've said you didn't receive that)
You didn't know you had an outstanding 'chance' but they thought you were paying it - on 18/12 (in time). Perfectly reasonable for them to
think so.

QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:01) *
[/i]
And again they replied back:
Please be aware that we referred this matter to Highways England who have advised that the crossing made during the warning period was IAxxxxxx, made on 29th November 2016. This PCN was issued on 08th December 2016 giving you the opportunity to pay Road User Charge for any outstanding crossing charges by 22nd December 2016.

Confirms the above.

But because that meant you'd only paid 1 X (for 29/11) you failed to pay for the later crossing on 18/12.

Then -
QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:01) *
And even if the fact is true that I had an outstanding road user charge for 29 November (which is definitely not £2.5 as it was not the first time I passed that crossing, probably it's £35),

You are talking/thinking nonsense there: It's not difficult to figure; however many times you crossed on 29/11 or earlier, you were ONE payment short -
so they very kindly issued the warning notice.

So, no, you didn't pay for 18/12.

But there are facts in there that might help you explain to HEDC and resolve it.

--

Now, if you haven't posted them while I've been typing, we need those docs, to look at your alternative
possibility, OOT


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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raselmahbub
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 22:32
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OK, I have uploaded the docs in google docs. pleas follow the link below:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4D...MTQ?usp=sharing
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Neil B
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 22:54
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Ok thanks.
Nothing to add.

What do you think of my conclusions?

It's important re how you decide to approach HEDC.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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raselmahbub
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 23:17
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Thanks Neil,

I am confused and baffled at the same time. I do not have any problem paying the fine/charge as long as I know what am I paying it for.
I just do not want to pay because I am scared and intimidated by some debt collectors threat.


I have already emailed to JBW (prev post). Lets wait for their reply.

In the meantime can you please suggest on how to approach HEDC.
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Neil B
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 23:32
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 00:17) *
I have already emailed to JBW (prev post). Lets wait for their reply.

Erm no.

The important thing is to remember HEDC can be helpful -
- but approach it in the right way - trying to resolve.

I think I've unraveled it correctly; the debt is real and justified - BUT >

-If you explain you never got the warning notice for 29/11

-So didn't expect payment to go to that

-So thought you'd paid 18/12

-and didn't get PCN for 18/12 anyway, just OfR (you've told us)*

-and tried to explain you thought paid - by very late reps (you've told us sent)

Then I think they might understand.

---
If you approach it 'I paid so go jump' = disaster.

*
IF you end up having to, then based on not receiving the PCN, if true, you can file an OOT WS to
get it reset.

Good luck! Call them. Twitter, whatever.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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raselmahbub
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 23:38
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Thanks Neil,
Shall I call on this number 0300 300 0120 (Dart Charge contact centre) found in the web site?
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Neil B
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 23:55
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 00:38) *
Thanks Neil,
Shall I call on this number 0300 300 0120 (Dart Charge contact centre) found in the web site?

I don't know the number.

Basing this only on other peoples' reported experiences on here.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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raselmahbub
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 19:29
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OK, I have called the DC guys today and as suspected, they are unable to help me as this is now out of their hand and with TEC and also it has gone into the enforcement stage. The explanation of the situation is also the same as we have been discussing on this thread.

The guy on the phone suggested me to call the TEC directly and seek their advise explaining the situation.

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Neil B
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 20:44
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 20:29) *
OK, I have called the DC guys today and as suspected, they are unable to help me as this is now out of their hand and with TEC and also it has gone into the enforcement stage. The explanation of the situation is also the same as we have been discussing on this thread.

The guy on the phone suggested me to call the TEC directly and seek their advise explaining the situation.

Ok.
Firstly, well done for trying.
TEC are unable to give advice.
So, we are back to this -
QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:01) *
Somehow I missed the first few correspondences in regards to the current PCN because I was in and out of the country.

The only letter I received was a Form TE3 "Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge" from TEC (my bad, I thought it was the PCN) and the amount required to pay was 115. And the deadline for the payment was also over 5/5/17 when I got the letter.

Did you receive a PCN (£35/£70) for 18/12 or not ?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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raselmahbub
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 20:49
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Never. Probably there was one but I missed it because during that period I was out of home most of the time.

This post has been edited by raselmahbub: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 20:55
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Neil B
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 20:59
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 21:49) *
Never. Probably there was one but I missed it because during that period I was out of home most of the time.

Can you document that?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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raselmahbub
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 21:05
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QUOTE
Can you document that?


I don't know what you mean by documenting. But if you mean whether I can prove it or not then YES of course. Actually from 1st December till to the end I was not at home at all even in the new year I went to home for a very short period and later around March/April I moved address. This all happened because of my new work place where I joined on 30th December 16.

Also, the OfR was issued to my prev address and the Enforcement letter to my new address.

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DancingDad
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 21:29
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 20:29) *
OK, I have called the DC guys today and as suspected, they are unable to help me as this is now out of their hand and with TEC and also it has gone into the enforcement stage. The explanation of the situation is also the same as we have been discussing on this thread.

The guy on the phone suggested me to call the TEC directly and seek their advise explaining the situation.


Jees
The authority is the controlling body, it is never out of their hands.
The bailiffs are simply the monkeys, not the organ grinder.

I am still confused.
Have they confirmed the events as you believe they are?
This they can do.
And, if they do, can they also explain how a payment for a crossing on X date was allocated to one on Y date ?
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Neil B
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 21:43
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 22:05) *
Also, the OfR was issued to my prev address

Uh?
Suddenly a new bit of info?

Anyway, moving on, as I no time to realistically spare.
QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:01) *
The only letter I received was a Form TE3 "Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge" from TEC (my bad, I thought it was the PCN) and the amount required to pay was 115. And the deadline for the payment was also over 5/5/17 when I got the letter.

So, not receiving a PCN was grounds to make a Witness Statement to rest the matter. You didn't because of your confusion about the situation - and made very late reps instead.

You seem entitled to make an application to file that same Witness Statement 'late', i.e. out of time, i.e. OOT.
What is that application (form TE7)?
You need to explain to the Court why you didn't make the WS (form TE9) when you could have.

So your statement would be?

--
IF your explanation is accepted you'll get a new PCN and £190.50 debt cancelled.

The second biggest reason these applications fail is that the Enforcement Authority 'object'.
Since you are dealing with HEDC, they might not.



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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raselmahbub
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 21:44
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QUOTE
can they also explain how a payment for a crossing on X date was allocated to one on Y date?


Exactly the same answer as JBW's email. The payment made on 18/12 gone into 29/11's PCN. Actually his explanation was a step further. He was telling me that it was actually me who paid that £2.5 going into the website against the PCN for 29/11. I did not argue as I was trying to be polite and get it resolved as you guys suggested here.

I still don't understand how £2.5 can write off a PCN for a crossing which was made around 20 days ago. As far I know the fine structure goes like: Non-payment after one day: £70.00 but reduced to £35.00 if paid in 14 days.
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Neil B
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 21:49
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My thanks to DD for joining in.
Cross posted while I typed my last.

But a valid point.
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 22:29) *
I am still confused.
Have they confirmed the events as you believe they are?
This they can do.
And, if they do, can they also explain how a payment for a crossing on X date was allocated to one on Y date ?

I guess it's all clarified on screen when you pay but I don't know as I've never done it nor have an account.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 22:18
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 22:49) *
.......I guess it's all clarified on screen when you pay but I don't know as I've never done it nor have an account.


I can't comment too much on the process either, only done it once under online system.
IIRC correctly, found payment site, put in reg, found one crossing on X date, paid.

Which is part of my confusion.
When OP went to pay for that day's crossing, I would expect to have seen two crossings for the payment to be allocated to the previous.
No argument that OP could have paid for the wrong one but thought he would have seen two ??
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raselmahbub
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 22:36
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Let me help you both on this..

The system does not show anything about the crossings you made.
You just go to the website and choose the option to make one of payment and pay whatever amount you want to pay entering the reg number.

I am 100% sure that I did not pay for the PCN as this is a completely different option to choose and you need a PCN number to pay and I didn't have the PCN because I was not at home at all. I didn't even know until now that I had an outstanding dart charge to pay. And most certainly I believe that a PCN would never be for just £2.5.

This post has been edited by raselmahbub: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 22:45
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DancingDad
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 23:04
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Thanks
I just went onto Dart payment site and yup, unless an account is set up, you can only make a payment against a vehicle reg.
Says this
QUOTE
For data protection reasons we are unable to show crossings or payments for a particular vehicle unless you enter a valid payment reference or set up an account.


So will take payment against any outstanding but unless enough paid, not all.
And will not show outstandings unless you set up an account.

Apologies for being obtuse.
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raselmahbub
post Tue, 5 Sep 2017 - 23:21
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Thanks DD.

So in regards to my situation I take it that I now need to submit an OOT WS to TEC on the ground of not receiving PCN. One question though, deadline (5/5/17) for OOTWS in the OfR letter is now long gone. Will it be a issue?
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