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Dart Charge PCN followed by JBW enforcement letter for a Paid Crossing
raselmahbub
post Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 01:19
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Hi All,

I would really be grateful if someone can help me with my situation.

The contravention date mentioned in the PCN is on 18/12/16. I have checked and the road user charge was actually paid on the same day within the required time.

So I completed the online representation providing the receipt of payment. Didn't receive any reply from dart charge team yet.

Received an enforcement letter asking to pay a total of 190.50 pound from JBW.
Contacted JBW and told them that the road user charge was actually paid and this is probably a mistake by the dart charge team. Also emailed them the payment receipt.

JBW contacted Highway Agency and came back to me with a different date and different reference number for which I never received any PCN/Letter. I told them

"I have not received any PCN in regards to the IA number mentioned in your email. Neither I am aware of any crossing made on the day you have mentioned.

You can not just cite a reference number and ask me to pay without any evidence. The enforcement letter I received from JBW also points to the same reference number for which the PCN was issued. And I have already made it clear to you that the road user charge related to the reference number has been paid on the day of crossing.
As I never received a PCN in regards to the contravention mentioned in your email I am not obliged to pay any amount to you.
"


Now they have come back to me with the following response:"In order to dispute this matter further, we suggest you file an Out of Time Witness Statement
with the Traffic Enforcement Center at Northampton County Court. Please note, we are unable to hold enforcement action in the meantime."


What options do I have now, do I really need to go through this 'Out of Time Witness Statement' thing? Can I just ignore their threat as to my understanding they do not have a case at all.

Many thanks

This post has been edited by raselmahbub: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 01:20
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post Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 01:19
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 08:34
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No you cannot ignore it, the bailiffs will not go away coz you say you don't owe anything.

You will need to file an oot WS to revert back to the appeals process and get the bailiffs out of the picture.

Others will advise better on this but in the meantime Post a timeline of events and ALL doc you have received. Use an external hosting site Fliker is recommended by some


You could also try Dart charge twitter and facebook accounts. telling your story on there has worked in the past
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Neil B
post Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 09:07
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JBW being incredibly helpful ! (DC influence?)

QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 02:19) *
As I never received a PCN in regards to the contravention mentioned in your email I am not obliged to pay any amount to you.

QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 02:19) *
to my understanding they do not have a case at all.

Firstly, be clear on what is happening.
JBW are holding a warrant giving them full authority to take your goods.
QUOTE
Please note, we are unable to hold enforcement action in the meantime.

The next escalation will add a further £235.

So, to advise, we need that timeline and need to see all docs and understand how communication took
place, i.e. "came back to me" ?

Confusion over the PCN identity is interesting as the JBW Notice and warrant may be faulty.

Where necessary, get the info from DC and, in doing so, based on recent experience, you may find them
very helpful.

If you do have to proceed with OOT you need all the same facts we're asking for.



--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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DancingDad
post Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 09:22
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Plus one to talk to Dart Charge people, they do seem to be one of the helpful authorities who actually try to resolve issues.
But do not ignore the process of OOT and Witness Statement.
Certainly for the OOT you need information, date of PCN, Date of further notices and address they were sent to minimum.
To persuade TEC to accept the OOT, you need to show why you could not have been expected to send the witness statement in time.... wrong address (if this is what happened) is far more credible then "I never got any of the notices"

As there seems to be two PCNs in play and one of them at least seems to have been issued in error but got to you, see what is happening to both.
And ask them to check the photos of the car in the "lost" PCN, could be a mis-read on the reg number
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raselmahbub
post Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 23:01
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Thanks everyone!

Somehow I missed the first few correspondences in regards to the current PCN because I was in and out of the country.

The only letter I received was a Form TE3 "Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge" from TEC (my bad, I thought it was the PCN) and the amount required to pay was 115. And the deadline for the payment was also over 5/5/17 when I got the letter.


I checked in the dart charge website with the IA number and it was still active (£115), so I decided to to pay the full amount. Interestingly as I was looking through my old emails I discovered that the road user charge on the day in question is actually paid and I have the receipt. So instead of paying the amount I made an online representation.

JBW sent me the Notice of Enforcement on 28/07/17 quoting the same IA number and the contravention date mentioned in the Form TE3. So I emailed them with my payment receipt as evidence.

JBW replied:
Please be aware that we referred this matter to Highways England who have advised that although you paid Road User Charge on the same day as crossing, you had an outstanding crossing which was given a warning period. The payment went to the prior crossing with the warning period. You needed to have made 2 Road User Charges to cover the crossing for that day, as well as the prior crossing which was under a warning period.


My response was:
I have not done any other crossing on the day in question (18/12/2016).
Contravention date and time for the PCN was 18:25 on 18/12/2016 (see attached) and the payment was made on the same day at 22:47.
So it is clear that the PCN which was issued for the contravention has already been paid within the required time period.
If there are any other charges outstanding, I need another PCN including the date and time of the contravention.

And again they replied back:
Please be aware that we referred this matter to Highways England who have advised that the crossing made during the warning period was IAxxxxxx, made on 29th November 2016. This PCN was issued on 08th December 2016 giving you the opportunity to pay Road User Charge for any outstanding crossing charges by 22nd December 2016.


I have already mentioned the last two emails in my first post.

Now, I have not received any PCN mentioned in the JBW's email neither I remember any road crossing on the date they are referring. I am more then willing to pay the charge/fine if this was the case. How could they come after me, where I have the evidence of payment of the charge on the date of contravention mentioned in both JBW and TEC's letter.

And even if the fact is true that I had an outstanding road user charge for 29 November (which is definitely not £2.5 as it was not the first time I passed that crossing, probably it's £35), how could the payment of £2.5 made on 18 December went into that prior crossing and that PCN is now banished but the one I actually paid for is hunting me down.

This post has been edited by raselmahbub: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 23:19
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Neil B
post Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 23:45
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:01) *
how could the payment of £2.5 made on 18 December went into that prior crossing and that PCN is now banished but the one I actually paid for is hunting me down.

Presumably because you have an account and it applies payments in time order.

So you didn't pay for the December one.

QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:01) *
So instead of paying the amount I made an online representation.

Too late and disregarded.

QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:01) *
neither I remember any road crossing on the date they are referring.

QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:01) *
And even if the fact is true that I had an outstanding road user charge for 29 November (which is definitely not £2.5 as it was not the first time I passed that crossing, probably it's £35),

Erm, --- which one is true?
Never there or crossed 20 odd times?


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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Neil B
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 09:14
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:45) *
QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 00:01) *
how could the payment of £2.5 made on 18 December went into that prior crossing and that PCN is now banished but the one I actually paid for is hunting me down.

Presumably because you have an account and it applies payments in time order.

So you didn't pay for the December one.

I'm only guessing that; I don't have an account.
You tell us.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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raselmahbub
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 19:50
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QUOTE
I'm only guessing that; I don't have an account.
You tell us.


You are right, I do not have an account.

QUOTE
Erm, --- which one is true?
Never there or crossed 20 odd times?


The truth is I used that crossing few times during that period and as far as I remember I paid all of them. And I am sure that 29 November was definitely not the first time I passed that crossing. So if I were to receive a PCN it would have been more than £2.5.

And surprisingly I do not have any payment receipt for that day as well. So either I forgot to pay the charge and never received a PCN OR they are mistaking me with someone/something else.
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peterguk
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 19:53
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 10:22) *
Plus one to talk to Dart Charge people, they do seem to be one of the helpful authorities who actually try to resolve issues.


What did Dart say when you called them today? You did call them didn't you?


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raselmahbub
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 20:08
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No Peterguk, I didn't call them. Instead, contacted them using the contact us form on the dart charge site.
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raselmahbub
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 20:18
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Also, Looking at the witness statement form, none of the grounds mentioned in the form applies to my case. There is no such ground for 'Already Paid Road User Charge' which means I cannot use this form. "Tick all boxes which apply to you. You are not permitted to add to or change the wording of any of the grounds. "
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Neil B
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 20:22
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 21:08) *
No Peterguk, I didn't call them. Instead, contacted them using the contact us form on the dart charge site.

Can I just recap where you are with this.

A warrant is held by JBW against you, empowering them to take your possessions to cover the debt and their statutory fees.

We are not entirely clear on the source of the debt but, to me so far, it looks feasible or even likely correct.

In terms of the law, it really doesn't matter what you 'think' about this.

With a bailiff notice £190.50 back in July, escalation, adding another £235 is imminent.
If the bailiff clamps your vehicle, taking possession, they might threaten you with a further £110 on top if you
don't pay and they proceed to remove. Beyond that, also daily storage charges.

--
I can only suggest you follow the earlier advice, urgently.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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peterguk
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 20:25
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 21:08) *
No Peterguk, I didn't call them. Instead, contacted them using the contact us form on the dart charge site.


So not very urgent then... rolleyes.gif

This situation is going to be easier to unravel on the phone than by one way contact forms.


--------------------
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raselmahbub
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 20:52
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Thank you Neil B and everyone else for the prompt response!


QUOTE
In terms of the law, it really doesn't matter what you 'think' about this.


Please correct me if I am completely misunderstanding this. I am not thinking anything about this. The contravention related to the reference number quoted in the letter I received from them is not true at all and I have the evidence of payment. They do not have any warrant for the contravention they have mentioned in their email.

I will give dart charge people a call tomorrow and I am suspecting they are going to say the same story as the JBW.
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Neil B
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 20:55
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 21:52) *
Please correct me if I am completely misunderstanding this.

I'll post later tonight. Tied up at mo.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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raselmahbub
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 21:09
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Quick Update

I have just emailed JBW:

Dear JBW team,

Though I have no prior knowledge of how to file a Out of Time Witness Statement, following your suggestion, I have tried to submit the Out of Time Witness Statement.

Unfortunately none of the grounds mentioned in the form applies to my situation i.e. I am unable to apply on the ground of 'Already Paid Road User Charge'. And the instruction of the form clearly says:

"Tick all boxes which apply to you. You are not permitted to add to or change the wording of any of the grounds. If none of the grounds apply, you cannot file the Witness Statement and you should contact the Local/Charging Authority who issued the Order for Recovery to try to resolve the matter."

Please advise.
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Neil B
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 21:20
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 21:52) *
QUOTE
In terms of the law, it really doesn't matter what you 'think' about this.

I am not thinking anything about this.

I was only referring to your earlier comment
QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Sun, 3 Sep 2017 - 02:19) *
to my understanding they do not have a case at all.

and your continued belief this is all wrong.
The Court (TEC) and the bailiffs believe you do and that's all that counts until you resolve it,
one way or another.

Before I continue, can I just reiterate what we've all said about HEDC. They are the ONLY authority
we often hear of acting fairly. Perhaps influenced by them, even the bailiff has tried to be helpful.

--

More in a mo.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 21:21
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well you can post the docs as asked for and ask us for advice people here do have a great deal of experience with OOT WS and give advice for free, or you can ask the bailiffs who only get paid if you pay
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Neil B
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 21:23
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QUOTE (raselmahbub @ Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 22:09) *
Quick Update

I have just emailed JBW:

Dear JBW team,

Though I have no prior knowledge of how to file a Out of Time Witness Statement, following your suggestion, I have tried to submit the Out of Time Witness Statement.

Unfortunately none of the grounds mentioned in the form applies to my situation i.e. I am unable to apply on the ground of 'Already Paid Road User Charge'. And the instruction of the form clearly says:

"Tick all boxes which apply to you. You are not permitted to add to or change the wording of any of the grounds. If none of the grounds apply, you cannot file the Witness Statement and you should contact the Local/Charging Authority who issued the Order for Recovery to try to resolve the matter."

Please advise.

Arrrggghhh ! No, no, no !

Please don't jump the gun: Sorry mate but that was the worst thing to do.
Give me a few minutes.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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raselmahbub
post Mon, 4 Sep 2017 - 21:34
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Thanks PASRMYBEST,

I do not have a great deal of documents to post. Just one TE3 form "Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge" from TEC which I believe all of you are familiar with (deadline was 5/5/17) and the other one is the enforcement letter from JBW.

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