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Was I in breach of the parking rules?
HenryHippo
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:23
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Hi Everyone,

Dec 2016 the driver opted to park in the road outside a chargeable car park (no double yellows or anything).

There was a sign saying anyone who parks on the verge will be fined. There was plenty of space in the road, so the driver parked in the road.

Only for the owner to get a ticket through the post from District Enforcement (A PCN)

The owner ignored them for a while and now got the threatening "Notice of impending court action" by recorded delivery

Does the owner and driver have a leg to stand on if this goes to court? The driver maintains that they are parked in the road and not on the (grass) verge







EDIT: In January the owner sent them an email explaining that the driver was parked on the layby not the verge, with pictures supporting this. The owner got the below letter from them on 10th Feb



This post has been edited by HenryHippo: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:05
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post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:23
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HenryHippo
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 21:48
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 18:51) *
But that was the Claimant/their solicitor.


Sorry I thought you meant the section of their WS that was stating that I had not paid the counterclaim fee when in fact I had
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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 21:18
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Oh sorry, I think I misunderstood and thought you had said someone at the local court had said you hadn't paid the fee. It's pathetic of the Claimant to say that because you did, and because I'm not sure they would even know because their claim was carrying on regardless. I think they guessed and hoped you'd slipped up/to intimidate you.

Remember that Dyl Kurpil of DE is a law graduate and ex-Police and will be at home in the Courtroom if he turns up in person:

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/news/law-graduates...-tcm4234703.jsp

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7njEdJXwAA7nj_.jpg (this image is in he public domain, from DE's own public Twitter account)

Don't be intimidated.

Be prepared for that - fleetingly at the start - but if you are expecting it, like in a job interview, you can soon rise above it and show that you know what you are talking about and have evidence to back your case.

I expect DE might argue that even if Robert Goodwill MP didn't want local Authorities to run locations open to the public 'as if it were private land' they might try the weird argument that there was still a contract between DE and the driver, regardless of who owns the land. In which case, steer it back to:

- no contract was agreed, nor even capable of being offered, and in any case there was no breach. It is the Claimant's case to prove and they haven't.

- the fact LA owned land is not 'relevant land' and you are defending this as rk, and there is no obligation nor adverse inference that can be drawn from a defendant not naming the driver, to protect that person from this level of harassment apart from anything else...and as rk, you CANNOT be held liable. POFA does not apply, no matter what they say.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 21:21
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HenryHippo
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 22:18
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 22:18) *
Oh sorry, I think I misunderstood and thought you had said someone at the local court had said you hadn't paid the fee. It's pathetic of the Claimant to say that because you did, and because I'm not sure they would even know because their claim was carrying on regardless. I think they guessed and hoped you'd slipped up/to intimidate you.

Remember that Dyl Kurpil of DE is a law graduate and ex-Police and will be at home in the Courtroom if he turns up in person:

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/news/law-graduates...-tcm4234703.jsp

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7njEdJXwAA7nj_.jpg (this image is in he public domain, from DE's own public Twitter account)

Don't be intimidated.

Be prepared for that - fleetingly at the start - but if you are expecting it, like in a job interview, you can soon rise above it and show that you know what you are talking about and have evidence to back your case.

I expect DE might argue that even if Robert Goodwill MP didn't want local Authorities to run locations open to the public 'as if it were private land' they might try the weird argument that there was still a contract between DE and the driver, regardless of who owns the land. In which case, steer it back to:

- no contract was agreed, nor even capable of being offered, and in any case there was no breach. It is the Claimant's case to prove and they haven't.

- the fact LA owned land is not 'relevant land' and you are defending this as rk, and there is no obligation nor adverse inference that can be drawn from a defendant not naming the driver, to protect that person from this level of harassment apart from anything else...and as rk, you CANNOT be held liable. POFA does not apply, no matter what they say.


Thanks for all the advice. Did my research on him already. If the judge decides that the car wasn't parked on the verge, then everything else is moot and won't be discussed right?

If the judge asks me who was driving that day, when the wording of my email to appeal suggests (correctly or incorrectly) that I was present at the time, am I entitled to say "I can't remember, X was with the car that day who is also on the insurance policy and I can't remember if myself or X was driving"


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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 10:05
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Be truthful. If you know who drove, dont lie and just say who drove.
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 11:04
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 11:05) *
Be truthful. If you know who drove, dont lie and just say who drove.


A key part of the defence though is that the RK can't be responsible if the driver isn't remembered
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Albert Ross
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 11:24
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res judicata.
Though then they may have a name that you disclose in court, but no address or further info.
If you were to say it was my Son driving, where can they take that?
although truth wins out. My son and I were both present.


--------------------
The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk.
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 11:44
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Update

Case will be rescheduled due to lack of resources at the court

Lady on the phone said it will be 2018 for sure. However DE's response will still be filed as late

A shame really as I was hoping to use this one as practice for the other
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emanresu
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 12:10
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QUOTE
Case will be rescheduled due to lack of resources at the court


QUOTE
A shame really as I was hoping to use this one as practice for the other


Why not ask for the other to be rescheduled to the same date at the same time.


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 12:51
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 13:10) *
QUOTE
Case will be rescheduled due to lack of resources at the court


QUOTE
A shame really as I was hoping to use this one as practice for the other


Why not ask for the other to be rescheduled to the same date at the same time.


They are at different courts. Hopefully the other one gets pushed back too. Would give me more time to get a copy of the UKPC contract too
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 13:06
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 12:04) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 11:05) *
Be truthful. If you know who drove, dont lie and just say who drove.


A key part of the defence though is that the RK can't be responsible if the driver isn't remembered

Be truthful! that applies at all stages. The penalty of perjury is quite high

No it isnt
A key part of the defence is that the Keeper isnt liable because POFA does not apply, and / or they didnt comply with the provisions of POFA.

Whether the RK can remember who drove or not has no bearing on this.
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HenryHippo
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 11:16
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Update:

Case has been listed for Friday 22nd June 2018

But there's an issue at my end. I'm a competition level athlete in my chosen sport and have been chosen to represent GB in France also on Friday 22nd June. I got the invite only a few days ago. If I'd known earlier I would have called the court and put it on my "dates to avoid".

I am planning to call the court on Monday and explain the situation, and ask them to move the date, but I fully anticipate the call center operative not being helpful and telling me "tough". So is there a proper channel to go through for this kind of request?
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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 18 Feb 2018 - 14:07
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I believe if they’re not happy to move on request - be prepared to have evidence to hand - you might have to make an application to move the date.
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HenryHippo
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 15:18
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Thanks. Have called up and they told me to email evidence which I did

I'm sure this must happen a lot... case was originally for Nov, no contact again until feb at which point it is scheduled for Jun

a lot of people could have booked a summer holiday in between Nov and Feb
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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 00:13
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QUOTE
But there's an issue at my end. I'm a competition level athlete in my chosen sport and have been chosen to represent GB in France also on Friday 22nd June. I got the invite only a few days ago. If I'd known earlier I would have called the court and put it on my "dates to avoid".

Very reasonable to add that to your unavailable dates. Representing your country gets you off exams with Exam Boards exempting people in some circs (I work in a school) so your reasons are certainly something very extraordinary, that I would hope a Court will consider. MUCH more persuasive reason than a holiday.
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 11:54
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 00:13) *
QUOTE
But there's an issue at my end. I'm a competition level athlete in my chosen sport and have been chosen to represent GB in France also on Friday 22nd June. I got the invite only a few days ago. If I'd known earlier I would have called the court and put it on my "dates to avoid".

Very reasonable to add that to your unavailable dates. Representing your country gets you off exams with Exam Boards exempting people in some circs (I work in a school) so your reasons are certainly something very extraordinary, that I would hope a Court will consider. MUCH more persuasive reason than a holiday.


Thanks. I would have thought so too.

I sent the court the email on 19th Feb. Rang them today to chase up

Spoke to a different person. He advised that I had been misadvised last time.

I am told I have 2 options:

A) If I have the approval of DE, then the case can be moved. I would need to contact DE directly. However I doubt that approval would be forthcoming

B) I can pay £250 (non refundable) and submit evidence why it should be moved. A judge will decide whether to move the case, but there is no guarantee and I don't get my money back either way




This is a real dilemma for me... I don't want to pay £250. That is more than the PCN was in the first place. I don't want to not turn up and lose the case. And I don't expect DE to be complicit, although I have nothing to lose by asking them. Is there a way to escalate this, given it is a national competition and not a holiday?

Thanks all
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 19:28
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No, this cannot be escalated.

Application without a hearing would be £100, but you could just ask the judge directly.
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HenryHippo
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 21:57
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 19:28) *
No, this cannot be escalated.

Application without a hearing would be £100, but you could just ask the judge directly.


How do you mean by ask the judge directly?
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ostell
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 22:14
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If you have a name then write directly to the judge, if not write to the judge hearing case xxxxx
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 10:45
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Exactly that - you might get a chance for them to see it then

Pushing back dates happens all the time.
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HenryHippo
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 13:47
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Today is the day!
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