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Was I in breach of the parking rules?
HenryHippo
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:23
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Hi Everyone,

Dec 2016 the driver opted to park in the road outside a chargeable car park (no double yellows or anything).

There was a sign saying anyone who parks on the verge will be fined. There was plenty of space in the road, so the driver parked in the road.

Only for the owner to get a ticket through the post from District Enforcement (A PCN)

The owner ignored them for a while and now got the threatening "Notice of impending court action" by recorded delivery

Does the owner and driver have a leg to stand on if this goes to court? The driver maintains that they are parked in the road and not on the (grass) verge







EDIT: In January the owner sent them an email explaining that the driver was parked on the layby not the verge, with pictures supporting this. The owner got the below letter from them on 10th Feb



This post has been edited by HenryHippo: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:05
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post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:23
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hexaflexagon
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:28
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Are you able to upload pictures of the PCN, the sign you mention and the road space in which you parked preferably including the sign.
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baroudeur
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:48
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:23) *
Hi Everyone,

Dec 2016 I opted to park in the road outside a chargeable car park (no double yellows or anything).

There was a sign saying anyone who parks on the verge will be fined. There was plenty of space in the road, so I parked in the road.

Only to get a ticket through the post from District Enforcement (A PCN)

I've ignored them for a while and now got the threatening "Notice of impending court action" by recorded delivery

Do I have a leg to stand on if this goes to court? I maintain that I am parked in the road and not on the (grass) verge


That looks suspiciously like two wheels off the tarmac and on the damaged verge.
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HenryHippo
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:51
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QUOTE (hexaflexagon @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:28) *
Are you able to upload pictures of the PCN, the sign you mention and the road space in which you parked preferably including the sign.


Done smile.gif

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:48) *
QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:23) *
Hi Everyone,

Dec 2016 I opted to park in the road outside a chargeable car park (no double yellows or anything).

There was a sign saying anyone who parks on the verge will be fined. There was plenty of space in the road, so I parked in the road.

Only to get a ticket through the post from District Enforcement (A PCN)

I've ignored them for a while and now got the threatening "Notice of impending court action" by recorded delivery

Do I have a leg to stand on if this goes to court? I maintain that I am parked in the road and not on the (grass) verge


That looks suspiciously like two wheels off the tarmac and on the damaged verge.




However, at the time I thought the sign refers to the grassy bit (i.e. where the wooden bollards are placed), which would be damaged by cars, and not the asphalt surface next to the road that wouldn't be damaged.

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Wed, 31 May 2017 - 22:47
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Gan
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:52
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A better question would be whether District Enforcement has a leg to stand if you complain to the DVLA that they've accessed your details without reasonable cause

According to Streetview that "lay-by" for the post box has been there since at least 2010
It's always had an asphalt surface and the posts were aligned to follow it

This post has been edited by Gan: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:09
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Jlc
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 10:56
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I'm not convinced that's 'parking on the verge'. Only in PPC world where the game is to issue as many tickets as possible.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Dave65
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:01
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Also, edit your post and remove all that ID`s the driver, state "Driver" did this or that.
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hexaflexagon
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:03
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I did wonder about the definition of 'verge'. It might be implied and certainly argued that the posts are there to delineate the verge and define it as being the grass behind the posts.

You didn't upload the PCN. There may be deficiencies in that.

I wonder whether postman Pat is the cause of the muddy bit behind the kerb and if so how many PCNs he's received and how many cases have been heard in the Greendale court :-)

This post has been edited by hexaflexagon: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:05
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HenryHippo
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:23
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QUOTE (hexaflexagon @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:03) *
I did wonder about the definition of 'verge'. It might be implied and certainly argued that the posts are there to delineate the verge and define it as being the grass behind the posts.

You didn't upload the PCN. There may be deficiencies in that.

I wonder whether postman Pat is the cause of the muddy bit behind the kerb and if so how many PCNs he's received and how many cases have been heard in the Greendale court :-)


I've mislaid the original PCN now

But yes it is more of a "lay by" than a verge


Do you guys think I should appeal to say I am parked on a layby not a verge?

Or ignore it, and if it does go to court, I have a pretty good defence of using a layby not a verge?
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Jlc
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:35
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:23) *
Do you guys think I should appeal to say I am parked on a layby not a verge?

Appeal? They wouldn't have entertained an original appeal let alone one now... (Private parking companies aren't in the game to accept appeals)

QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:23) *
Or ignore it, and if it does go to court, I have a pretty good defence of using a layby not a verge?

Ignoring is one option but if they've gone to the hassle of a recorded letter then there is a fair chance an actual court claim will follow.

So, either wait and see or go on the offensive. (That no terms were breached and any claim would be vexatious)

In hindsight, they shouldn't have been 'ignored' but the point would have been about positioning for a potential claim.

...it's an interesting location as there doesn't appear to be any restrictions other than the 'verge'.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:29


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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hexaflexagon
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:37
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It would be worth asking DEL for a copy of the PCN.
Try ringing DEL's office and telling the switchboard that you've misplaced it and just need a copy, in the hope that they put you through someone who'll just do that. The aim being to avoid someone who might decide it's not in their interest to send a copy.

If this fails then formally write asking for a copy which you will need for your defence when they start court proceedings.


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Gan
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:41
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District Enforcement is a member of the IPC not the British Parking Association

Member companies are not in the habit of accepting appeals
The so-called independent second appeal is a sham and you would have little chance of success

All you would achieve is hand District a decision to wave in court
They would then declare that you were unreasonable by putting them to the effort and expense of an appeal when you had no intention to accept the result

What you could do is send them one firm letter that makes clear that you're not a soft target
They can't then argue that you unreasonably refused to engage

Dear Sir

Ref ****

I have received your Notice of Impending Court Action

As your own photograph confirms, the vehicle was not parked on a verge as you allege

Any legal action will be firmly defended

Yours Faithfully


There is also the issue that the location is not relevant land and District has no right to recover payment from the registered keeper if the driver is unknown
I suggest not mentioning it at this stage because it gives the company something to argue about as a distraction
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Jlc
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 11:49
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Relevant Land:

QUOTE
(1)In this Schedule “relevant land” means any land (including land above or below ground level) other than—
(a)a highway maintainable at the public expense (within the meaning of section 329(1) of the Highways Act 1980);
(b)a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority;
©any land (not falling within paragraph (a) or (b)) on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control.


...this is in relation to 'keeper liability' under Protection of Freedoms Act.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Gan
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 13:30
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Oops

Forgot to identify the legislation that provided them, subject to certain conditions, to pursue the registered keeper

As JLC has pointed out, it cannot apply to the location which comes under (a) and/or ©
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HenryHippo
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:06
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I've just edited my original post as the owner sent them a letter in Jan, explaining that the driver was parked on the layby not the verge, which they essentially rejected and sent the letter at the bottom of the first post.
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hexaflexagon
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:19
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:06) *
I've just edited my original post as the owner sent them a letter in Jan, explaining that the driver was parked on the layby not the verge, which they essentially rejected and sent the letter at the bottom of the first post.


That response of theirs is somewhat curious. Why do they need to mention other users (drivers) who have received PCN's and say that it would be an injustice if they treated you any differently. Coupled with their 'We are confident..' and the 'for the sake of consistency' phrases it hardly suggests they are confident of winning.

Do you remember whether the original PCN mentioned POFA?
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Lynnzer
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:26
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Send a cease and desist letter.
They have accessed the DVLA database for keeper details without reasonable cause.

Advise them that as they have obtained your details as the registered keeper when no contravention was taking place, as evidenced in their own photograph, the continued use of the details they have will amount to a breach of the Data Protection Act. If they continue in their absolutely crass and futile attempts to obtain payment when none is due will result in an added counter-claim for the sum of, say, £500 for damages for the breach of the DPA.

I wonder if that sign has consent under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007.
Best check it out on the council's planning portal to see.

It may also, as has already been pointed out, that the road is a public highway, or that it's a council owned one which it seems to state. Either, or, would amount to the road not being on relevant land.
Call the council and ask about the status of the road, whether it's public highway or privately owned council land.


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Jlc
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:34
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QUOTE
"...we must apply the law uniformly..."


What law is that?

Also, it claims the term 'Obstructive Parking'. Strange, I don't see that term on the contract.



Lynnzer's DPA angle is one way of 'going on the offensive'.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 15:14
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:34) *
QUOTE
"...we must apply the law uniformly..."


What law is that?



The law according to Dyl Kurpil! ex Police, owns DE.

I seem to recall, he also used to mimic certain NIP wording about 'transfer of liablity' in his NTKs but they've been dumbed down since.
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Jlc
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 15:24
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 15:14) *
The law according to Dyl Kurpil! ex Police, owns DE.

Ah, yes - here.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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