Clapham high street - stopped on a red route |
Clapham high street - stopped on a red route |
Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 16:12
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 3 Mar 2011 Member No.: 44,778 |
Hope someone can clarify this for me.
Just had a PCN in the post from TFL for stopping on a red route in clapham. I am guilty of the offence but hoping i can get away with this on a technicality. I have searched the TSRGD and i cant find the required chapter but i have been succesful in the past by using the TSRGD on previous PCNs. I understand that a red route parking bay for loading and taxis has to have a sign at either end of the parking area either be erected parralel to the kerb or facing the oncoming traffic. I entered and parked in the bay from the opposite carriageway where i parked at the nearest end of the bay facing the oncoming traffic, where the front of the bay was away from me closer to the oncoming traffic. There was no sign at the end where i parked so presumingly it was good to park due to no visible signage. I had a look lastnight on my way to work and there is one sign in the middle of the bay facing oncoming traffic and not parallel to the kerb or at either end of the parking bay. I would say that the total length of the bay is about 50 - 60 x metres in length. Would i be correct to think that the single sign in the middle, is not the correct spec as in the TSRGD? If someone could direct me to the relevant page and chaptor then i can see for myself. Please see attached doc i made to explain if not clear above. Thanks
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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 16:12
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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 16:21
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,261 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
As this is a PCN and therefor not criminal, I've asked a Mod' to move it out of the criminal cases forum into the council and other decriminalised forum for you.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 16:40
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 3 Mar 2011 Member No.: 44,778 |
sorry rookie, i hadnt realised,
thanks |
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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 17:04
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
post all of the PCN and a GSV ask TfL for the cctv and post that
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 17:29
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 3 Mar 2011 Member No.: 44,778 |
it would be pointless to do so as i am guilty of the offence from my own admission. I am making a query on the signage and whether it is to the laid down specifications.
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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 18:02
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
it would be pointless to do so as i am guilty of the offence from my own admission. I am making a query on the signage and whether it is to the laid down specifications. We don't know post the PCN and the GSV so we can look -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 18:04
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
How can you be 'guilty' if the signage doesn't confirm to regulation.
Anyway I make it here - and I can't see anything wrong with signage, which shows it's for loading or taxis. Although they should really put a sign at the start of the bay for oncoming traffic but TFL often don't do this. https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4626555,-0....6384!8i8192 This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 18:20 |
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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 18:38
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 3 Mar 2011 Member No.: 44,778 |
Thankyou stamfordman.
I thought the post i made was quite clear. As per my post, i am guilty of parking. I question and asked whether the signage is to spec, thats all. I would have expected there to be a sign at each of the bay, but in this case, it is sat almost in the middle. In the photo you attached, i was parked where the bike is in the photo, so no visible signage at the start and end of the bay. My question again, what is written on the sign is irelevant, should there be a sign at either end of the parking bay or is the one only sign on the bay to spec? The sign is only facing oncoming traffic for that side of the carriageway. It is not parallel with the kerb to be seen from both directions. This post has been edited by mikeyranson: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 18:39 |
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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 18:54
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Red routes have no stopping - not no waiting - restrictions so the idea is that signs face oncoming traffic so drivers can assess the bay without stopping. You say you came in from the other direction - how long did you stop for and did you look for the sign?
In this bay there would be a defence for stopping at the start of the bay and then getting out and looking for the sign in the middle and then going back and moving. These bays are mostly monitored by CCTV and the operator should see this as well as checking for exempt activity (loading in this case) or a taxi after 7pm. Near me in north London TFL has put some posts at the start of some bays on a busy shopping street but these are mostly ones with a P for parking. I think the bay you were in is badly signed but it is not reasonable to put signs facing traffic coming from the opposite side in that street. Guidance says it could be so but we'd need a good example: 16.2.5. All upright “no stopping” signs should normally face oncoming traffic, as mentioned in 16.1.4, otherwise a driver might be tempted to stop in a bay to read the sign, and in doing so risk the possibility of committing an offence. Where drivers are likely to approach a parking place from the opposite side of the road, a sign should also face in that direction. This could be achieved by placing a sign at each end of the bay, facing outwards towards approaching traffic. For bays over 30 m in length, additional signs may be required. These may be parallel to the kerb or back to back facing traffic in each direction. We ask for the PCN to check for faults. This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 18:56 |
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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 19:19
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 3 Mar 2011 Member No.: 44,778 |
Thankyou stamfordman.
I did stop there for about ten minutes as i popped in to mcdonalds to get a quick bite on my way home. I had a look from where i parked and saw nothing and i didnt go looking either. In my head, i have it that if there is not a sign at either end, then the bay is non enforceable. I have had a couple of successful appeals in the past where the signage was not at either end where there was no sign at all or sign missing from the post. In this case, reviewing the bay lastnight and on google, one sign is only in the middle and seem sto have always been that way. If there is meant to be a sign then there will be alot of refunds. If it is legal, then i need to cough up £65. I cant find the page or chapter in the TSRGD to confirm whether it also applies to red routes. If you have this handy, then could you post the link please I have attached the PCN. Thanks for your help.
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Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 11:09
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Call TFL and ask for the video, you'll be sent a DVD in the post and the penalty will be put on hold while you wait. If you're going to end up paying £65, you might as well get something for your money and if you're lucky, the video might confirm there was a problem with the signage.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 11:41
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,155 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
The date of the PCN please.
You may pay the discount within a defined period relative to the date of service which is calculated by reference to the date of the notice. If you submit a request for the DVD after the expiry of the discount then for these purposes it's gone. And to be accurate, at the time of the contravention the exemption applied to taxis only, so even establishing loading would not be a defence. I think your instincts are sound i.e. unless you could guarantee a win at adj based on signs then you should pay the discount. And you cannot. The sign is clear and in the circumstances of this case (i.e. away from the vehicle for at least 10 minutes and approaching from the wrong direction) no adj is going to dance on the head of a pin about whether the sign was at the front or back. |
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Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 14:20
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 3 Mar 2011 Member No.: 44,778 |
Thanks for your reply.
Your right and i think on this occassion i will hav eto cough up to TFL. Many thanks for your input. |
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