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Ticket for parking on my land--Please help, Debt Collection for X2 Parking Charge Notices
ollie-ollie
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:08
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Hi Guys,

I would massively appreciate any help that you can give me.

I am renting a flat in London that comes with an allocated parking space, a space which our landlord pays £5000 to use. At the end of 2017 I received 2 parking tickets on different dates for not displaying a valid permit.
The permit was essentially loose and slipped down from the window on both occasions. There is no requirement in our lease to display a valid car parking permit, and even though I felt that it was unfair to have to display a permit I decided to regardless until the 2 occasions when the permit fell down. Upon further inspection I can also see that the same parking warden allocated both tickets on different dates which strikes me as a bit odd as I park my car in the same space often and he/she would have undoubtedly seen my car there with a valid permit previously and still decided to give me a ticket/invoice as I now understand it too be.

I have read countless forums and I am still uneasy about the idea of going to court should it come to that. I decided not to appeal after reading some of the forums and the advice from many to ignore the tickets vs appeal based on the grounds and advice that the parking warden was trespassing on the land that we are renting from our landlord.

Things have now escalated and we are receiving solicitor letters from Gladstones looking to reclaim the increased amount in both cases. I feel very strongly that this is an innocent mistake and that ultimately we have parked within our allocated space, space allocated to our landholder by the freeholder and our being penalised for doing so. What are the chances of them taking the case to court and winning?

Any help/suggestions would be much appreciated. I have searched through plenty of threads and not found a case as yet like mine.

Ollie
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post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:08
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Jlc
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:56
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QUOTE (ollie-ollie @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:08) *
I decided not to appeal after reading some of the forums and the advice from many to ignore the tickets vs appeal based on the grounds and advice that the parking warden was trespassing on the land that we are renting from our landlord.

Ignoring is generally not a good idea today - especially if court proceedings are possible. Even more so when you potentially have a very good argument.

QUOTE (ollie-ollie @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:08) *
Things have now escalated and we are receiving solicitor letters from Gladstones looking to reclaim the increased amount in both cases. I feel very strongly that this is an innocent mistake and that ultimately we have parked within our allocated space, space allocated to our landholder by the freeholder and our being penalised for doing so. What are the chances of them taking the case to court and winning?

Which parking company is this? Small claims can be a lottery but steer clear of 'innocent mistakes', Private Parking companies don't care. If the lease is clear and unambiguous then you potentially have a good chance.

QUOTE (ollie-ollie @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:08) *
I have searched through plenty of threads and not found a case as yet like mine.

Really? Residential parking aplenty.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 16:19
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try reading here
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ollie-ollie
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:20
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Thanks Guys,

I really appreciate your help and insights. JLC or anyone else reading, do you know of cases where people have won court cases based on their tenancy agreement not talking about needing to display a valid permit??

The parking company in question is good old UKPCM!! And if I may ask without holding you all to account would you go to court if required in my case or pay up? It may be a bit too late to contact Gladstones now.

Ollie

This post has been edited by ollie-ollie: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:22
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 14:24
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Its never too late to respond.

Yes, you woudl go to court. Gladstones are utterly appalling in court - they even fail to show at times! - and so the normal 70:30 odds atre improved
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ollie-ollie
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 16:10
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Nosferatu are you suggesting it's a good idea to contact Gladstones? I've been holding back from doing so partly because of not knowing what to say to them and how they may record, take everything in to account and use it to their advantage.

Any thoughts? Nice to know about the number of court cases that they don't show up at.

Ollie
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 16:21
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Yes, you respond formally
Write up something here and get us to have a look at it. Of course you will NEVER EVER call anyone.
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Redivi
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 16:29
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Judges do not look with favour on Defendants that have made no effort to engage before court action

I would send Gladstones a very brief letter that states your main point, gives them nothing they can use against you and sends the warning that you're not a soft touch

Something along the lines of

Dear Sir

Ref ****

I have received your letter dated ****

I deny any debt to UK Car Park Management
The vehicle was parked on my own property and my lease does not require me to have any regard to the wishes of your client

When I receive a properly formatted Letter Before Claim in accordance with the Pre-action Protocol for Debt Claims, I will provide a more detailed reply
I will at that time inform you of the information and documents I require to understand why your client believes that it can over-ride the terms of my lease and my right to enjoy the quiet enjoyment of my property

Yours Faithfully
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ollie-ollie
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 20:09
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Many thanks Redivi,

I will immediately write as suggested above to Gladstones. Would you all suggest that it is worth including any other details on a letter to Gladstones as per the above suggestion from Redivi? I want to be as comprehensive as I possibly can at this point.

Is it worth me writing to CPM at this stage in the process as there is little evidence that I have disputed these tickets so far? I have also composed the following email with a view to sending it to our Management agents that are in charge of our building and allowing private parking companies to operate. My thought process was to head towards escalating this situation and reaching out to the landlord and mp's if necessary? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the below email and whether you think it will help my case and any thoughts on amendments.

To whom it may concern,

I write to you as a matter of urgency and would very much like your help in dealing with the below parking matter.

I am a tenant at Flat XX Hurricane House,

As a part of our tenancy agreement we were allocated a parking space (EP 41) and the express right to park there according to our tenancy agreement, which began on 11/03/2017. There was no sign/clear requirement for a valid parking permit at the beginning of our tenancy agreement. And given the terms of contract in our tenancy agreement it came as a shock when on 31/07/2017 we received a parking fine for parking in our own allocated bay. I was shocked that it had happened having received no information to suggest the need to display a parking permit and no mention whatsoever of it in our tenancy agreement. In addition our landlord pays and continues to pay £5000 a year for the allocated parking bay that we have been given express condition to use.

Given the supremacy of our tenancy agreement and the right to the peaceful exclusive use of our own parking space we saw no need to reach out to UKPCM to ask for a valid permit. We later received a second parking charge notice on 07/09/2017. As a tenant I am beyond upset to have received this tickets for parking in our space. We are now being chased by debt collectors and there is a risk that we may be taken to court. I have looked in to this matter further and become aware that there was a change of private parking operator from PPM to UKPCM on 5th May.

I would like to know on whose authority these private parking companies have the right to operate and to issue tickets to ourselves, other owners and tenants?

As far as I am concerned they are trespassing on our land. We have equally spoken to a number of angry and frustrated homeowners and tenants that have received their own penalty charge notices and sometimes multiple tickets at any one time. Rather than protect the residents right to enjoy their allocated parking bays UKPCM have caused us and many others and enormous amount of time and stress.

I look forward to hearing your response and your thoughts on the above. Given the circumstances and the potential for this to be taken to court I ask for your assistance and contact if required with Flat XX Freeholder in order to resolve this parking charge situation.

Many thanks,

Ollie


I have very little time on my hands so I have begun ahead of schedule to prepare a witness statement just in case this does go to court based on these forums and a skeleton statement. How likely is this in your experience that it could go to court guys? I have read that only 1 in 1000 CPM parking charge notices actually goes to court in the end (350 or so this year so far)

Many thanks as always in advance.

Ollie
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 20:23
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They’ve upped their court action this year - it's a lot more likely than 1/1000. Assume they will.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Eljayjay
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 20:23
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Residential parking cases are usually very winnable (by the resident).

You do, however, need to do some homework.

I am unsure about your status.

If you are the leasehold owner of the flat, you need to thoroughly search your head lease for anything and everything relating to parking. You also need to search your head lease for anything and everything about any ways in which the terms of the lease can be amended or any ways in which anyone can make rules or regulations to change add anything to the existing terms.

If you are a sub-tenant (i.e. you rent the flat from the leasehold owner), you will need to ask your landlord for a copy of the head lease and search thoroughly for the same extracts. In addition, however, you will also need to search your tenancy agreement to find what it says about parking and how that can be changed.

If there is nothing in your tenancy agreement about parking, you may need your landlord to provide you with a written statement that he/she had, in fact, granted you the right to park.

If the changes (which introduced the ticketing and charging regime) were not made properly and in accordance with the lease, you should be OK.
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Redivi
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 21:00
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The reply to Gladstones is not for their benefit
It's to demonstrate to a court that you didn't ignore them

It's deliberately very brief to inform them that the space is your property
Everything else can be saved for later when they've sent the correct Letter Before Claim

I work on the principle that, when writing to a parking company or its solicitor, not to give them any more information than necessary
Anything else has potential to be used as a distraction or twisted against you

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ollie-ollie
post Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 00:32
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Redivi that makes a lot of sense!! Many thanks and I will crack on sending the letter and keep you all posted here wink.gif

Ollie
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ollie-ollie
post Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 14:01
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 20:23) *
They’ve upped their court action this year - it's a lot more likely than 1/1000. Assume they will.


Good to know Jlc. That being the case I am preparing my case in advance and have already compiled a witness statement and a skeleton defence that I will share with you all and ask for feedback here should it come to that.

@ Redivi I've written to Gladstones in a very similar manner to the way that you suggested. I had hoped to cc Debt Recovery Plus and UKPCM in there but have not as yet found an email address for them. Does anyone have one?

@Eljay the attached link is the only mention of parking in our tenancy agreement. As for the head lease it states as per the attachment that our landlord pays £5000 per annum in order to park in the allocated parking space. I've attempted to attached proof of the allocated parking space where we were parked when the penalty charge notice was given. I cannot see anything in there as such that mentions other 3rd party companies like CPM and their ability to trump our lease but I will keep looking just in case

I think it is a great idea to ask our landlord to write a letter for us making it clear that we have express permission to use the parking space as we so choose. Do you or any of the others have any suggestions as to how that letter should be worded and formatted and is a signature from our landlord advisable or not needed?

Initial Formal Parking Demand for 1 of the tickets

http://bit.ly/2FrcjmH

Parking within tenancy agreement
http://bit.ly/2Hn7OGn

Landlord allocated parking bay
http://bit.ly/2FC9qyL


Mention of parking within head lease
http://bit.ly/2DgGeaY

Ollie
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Eljayjay
post Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 14:29
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You really need to get hold of the head lease or whatever document controls your landlord's right to use the parking space.

The reason for this is that it might say something along the lines of "The Landlord/Management Company may make rules and regulations about matters relating to..." and, if they use that as an excuse for the parking regime, you need to be able to say "yes, but that does not apply because...".

You might like to take a look at my post on Captain Sizzle 87's thread.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 11:42
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DOnt send ANYTHING EVER to DRP. Its pointless
Dont send to the PPC. Theyve hired soicitors so you contact the solicitors.
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ollie-ollie
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 11:40
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@Elijay thanks that makes sense. I'm fairly sure that they have sent the full head lease through so I will double check. Otherwise my concern is that our landlord is away travelling and may not be able to get hold of it before a potential court date.

I will also have a look at Captain Sizzle's thread (what a username wink.gif

@nosferatu that makes complete sense thank you. The latest from Gladstones is that they've asked for a before claims number in response to my email starting with a 10 but I'm fairly sure that I don't have one yet and could only reply with the DRP reference.

Let me know if you guys have any thoughts re Gladstones and the claim number, perhaps there was something that I've missed. I was also keep you all posted on updates.

Many thanks for the help wink.gif

Ollie

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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 14:51
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If its a proper lease, it will be registered ad you can purchase a copy of it. Land registry

The letter from Gladstones will have their reference nunmbe ron it, I would ave thought.
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KH_
post Thu, 15 Mar 2018 - 17:55
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QUOTE (ollie-ollie @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 14:01) *

Mention of parking within head lease
http://bit.ly/2DgGeaY

Ollie


You may want to scrub the phone numbers from this one!
Even if they're no longer related to the head lease, someone probably has them smile.gif
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ollie-ollie
post Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 12:26
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@nosferatu I will have a look at land registry for that and see if I can find the head lease there that will be really useful as my landlord hasn't replied yet
As for the letter from Gladstones there was just a DRP reference on there. They then responded by asking for the letter before claim starting with the number 10. Is it too early to received a letter before claim at this point?

KH great idea. I'll take the link down for now for safety wink.gif
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