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MS90 Without Notification
JK1993
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:13
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Good afternoon all,

Just looking for a bit of guidance into an unwelcome surprise received yesterday!

Never did I expect that opening my pay slip would result in me being made aware of an attachment of earnings for a total of £811...

I then rang the enforcement center and was advised it relates to a speeding incident in April 2017 where I was caught doing 38mph in a 30mph.

I was totally unaware of this offence so I rang the DVLA and found out I updated my logbook on 25/04/17 but the offence took place 13/04/2017 so the letters sent advising of this would have gone to my previous address...

Yesterday I confirmed I wished for a Statutory Declaration form to be sent to the magistrates court so I am now awaiting the date for my case.

Obviously had I had received the letter advising of the speeding offence, I would've paid the fine and took either the 3 points or the speed awareness course..

What do you think will be the likely outcome and what would your recommendations be in what I should say/do

Your help is greatly appreciated!

This post has been edited by JK1993: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:17
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post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:13
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The Rookie
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:17
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The offence you will have been found guilty of is failing to identify the driver.

If you make a stat dec you then plead not guilty to that offence, a trial date will be set, at that trial its usually a simple matter to agree with the prosecutor that you will plead guilty to the speeding if the failing to furnish is dropped, obviously you can only do that if you believe you were driving. The alternative is to fight the S172 on the basis that you didn't receive the request to nominate the driver, your chances of success would then depend on what date you moved and what date you sent of the logbook to be updated.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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JK1993
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:26
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I would be happy to plead guilty to speeding as I would've just paid the standard penalty once received and take 3 points and a smaller fine or a smaller fine and the speed awareness course as it's my first points ever on my licence.

I'm really hoping they remove the additional penalty and just issue me with a standard speeding fine and either 3 points or a send me on the speed awareness course as it's my first offence

If I plead not guilty to the MS90, will I then have this penalty reimbursed back to me? How does that work?

This post has been edited by JK1993: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:34
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Jlc
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:58
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How courts deal with this situation does vary a bit. Some are quite happy to assist in the 'plea bargain' approach when performing the SD - but you will be asked to submit a plea straightaway which seems perverse as you did not receive anything to decide. If in doubt, plead not guilty - you can always defend or change your plea. (Pleading guilty will go straight to sentencing - the key is that you do not plead guilty to the speeding until the s172 is dropped.

If the speeding was originally pursued (along with the s172 - failing to furnish) then it's usually much easier to avoid the harsher offence.

Additionally, they may consider a sentence with a fixed penalty equivalent and no costs order - but you may well need to ask for them to consider this.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:59
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A court can’t sentence you to attend a course so it’ll be a fine and points. You can ask to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level of £100, rather than an income based fine.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:59
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QUOTE (JK1993 @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 13:26) *
If I plead not guilty to the MS90, will I then have this penalty reimbursed back to me? How does that work?

The SD removes the conviction (points/fine etc.) - then the matter progresses as normal. You will be owed a refund if you've paid anything so far.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:00


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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JK1993
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:06
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Thanks for the replies everyone,

So if I plead not guilty to the s172 due to failing to receive notification of any letters relating to a speeding offence, I'm best off only pleading guilty to the speeding once they have agreed to drop the s172?

I know I updated my log book late which is my error that I cannot deny but I just really hope that all I will get is a fine of around £100 and 3 points and nothing more.

Do I say to the judge that this is the punishment I feel is fair?

This post has been edited by JK1993: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 14:09
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The Rookie
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:05
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With reference to the fixed penalty level, you suggest the court follow the sentencing guidelines which suggest the court applies the fixed penalty tariff where it has been taken up due to reasons unconnected with the offence such as administrative difficulties, they may not do so as to start kind of your fault, but don’t ask, don’t get.

Yes only plead guilty to speeding once the prosecutor has agreed they will drop the S172 in exchange, you do that before entering court which is why it’s not always possible to do this when doing the SD as there isn’t always a prosecutor available.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:05


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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JK1993
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:25
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:05) *
With reference to the fixed penalty level, you suggest the court follow the sentencing guidelines which suggest the court applies the fixed penalty tariff where it has been taken up due to reasons unconnected with the offence such as administrative difficulties, they may not do so as to start kind of your fault, but don’t ask, don’t get.

Yes only plead guilty to speeding once the prosecutor has agreed they will drop the S172 in exchange, you do that before entering court which is why it’s not always possible to do this when doing the SD as there isn’t always a prosecutor available.

Thank you, silly question but if they drop the S172, does that mean they'll remove the charge of £811 and only fine me £100 (for example) for speeding

Is the whole process quite a lengthy one? Does anyone have any examples of how long it has taken from start to finish?

I will do as advised and only plead guilty to speeding once they have agreed to remove the S172 and hope the judge understands it was nothing but an administrative error and nothing malicious as it was my first vehicle so I will also advise I wasn't entirely aware I needed to update it when I moved address!
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Jlc
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:32
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QUOTE (JK1993 @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:25) *
Thank you, silly question but if they drop the S172, does that mean they'll remove the charge of £811 and only fine me £100 (for example) for speeding

You've been convicted without your knowledge. The SD removes this conviction and takes it back to the start of the prosecution. The endorsement and fine are essentially squashed.

The prosecution starts will a clean slate.

Hopefully, you will have been dual charged and have the ('easy') opportunity to plea bargain and be convicted of the speeding. It will either be at normal court rates or they will agree a fixed penalty equivalent.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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JK1993
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:44
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:32) *
QUOTE (JK1993 @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:25) *
Thank you, silly question but if they drop the S172, does that mean they'll remove the charge of £811 and only fine me £100 (for example) for speeding

You've been convicted without your knowledge. The SD removes this conviction and takes it back to the start of the prosecution. The endorsement and fine are essentially squashed.

The prosecution starts will a clean slate.

Hopefully, you will have been dual charged and have the ('easy') opportunity to plea bargain and be convicted of the speeding. It will either be at normal court rates or they will agree a fixed penalty equivalent.

That's great, I am hoping that the result is they remove the £811 and 6 point penalty and then just treat it as a standard speeding offence with the regular fine and 3 points.

I'll very disappointed if the verdict is anything more than this given the circumstances.
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Jlc
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 16:23
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QUOTE (JK1993 @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:44) *
I'll very disappointed if the verdict is anything more than this given the circumstances.

That is the best outcome indeed but not assured yet.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 18:13
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QUOTE (JK1993 @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:44) *
I am hoping that the result is they remove the £811 and 6 point penalty

There’s no hope about it. Once the statutory declaration is done the conviction is voided.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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peterguk
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 18:20
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:32) *
squashed.


Is that like quashed but a bit flatter? biggrin.gif


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Jlc
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 18:46
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 18:20) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 15:32) *
squashed.


Is that like quashed but a bit flatter? biggrin.gif

Ha! A bit juicy... tongue.gif


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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