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CPS 'notice to keeper', Do I have to pay this?
UKSoutherner
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 20:26
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I've received 2 'notice to keeper' letters- my car was parked in the same spot on 2 occasions. The space was marked as for customers of Abelworld only, but none of their spaces was taken, so the driver felt it wouldn't cause them a problem. I've since visited the site to take photos of the sign. It has terms and conditions re parking and charges, but the way it is worded implies that these will only apply to customers of Ableworld. I've copied the letter and the signs below.

I've read he posts on this site that say it's no longer recommended to ignore such notices, so what are my next steps? Can I write to them refusing to name the driver and pointing out that, since the red part of the sign clearly only refers to Ableworld customers, this charge will not be paid?









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post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 20:26
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Jlc
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 20:43
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In terms of the wording CPS are one of the few companies that actually DO offer parking for a charge. (Where the 'free' conditions are not abided by). Many other companies use 'forbidding' wording. The driver seems to have accepted the charge by their conduct.

CPS used to take all cases to court but I don't know what their current process is.

They seem to have complied with the PoFA to pursue the keeper - so they can pursue the keeper regardless of whether they do not know who was driving or decide not to name them. Might be worth checking all of the conditions mind.

There should be a full stop before the 'No leaving site' but it does not appear to assist you.

They are a low volume PPC (Here) which is why there are not many cases on here (which is why they used to pursue nonpayers). Bear in mind this thread may well turn up in their court evidence.

They will almost certainly reject any appeal and so will the IAS.

I'll get grief for saying this but one shouldn't ignore their offer of early settlement discount.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 20:47


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cabbyman
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 20:51
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A core term of the contract is not prominent. PE v Beavis.


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Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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Jlc
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 21:34
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 20:51) *
A core term of the contract is not prominent. PE v Beavis.

That's a fair point. There are always angles to attack.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 21:50
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What receipt is the motorist required to obtain ?

Does Ableworld issue one if he visits the store without making a purchase ?

IIRC there's some text in the old BPA Legislation Guide for Operators that the motorist only contracts to enter the store


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UKSoutherner
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 22:32
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 21:51) *
A core term of the contract is not prominent. PE v Beavis.

Does that mean I could argue that Ableworld suffered no financial loss due to the car being parked in one of their spaces since all of their other spaces were available to potential customers?

QUOTE (cabbyman)
What receipt is the motorist required to obtain ?

Does Ableworld issue one if he visits the store without making a purchase ?

That's one of the things that makes me think the 'contract' is unenforceable. That and the missing full stop which means the main sentence makes no sense.
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NorthSouth
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 22:37
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It does look that the PPC have actually complied with POFA...although there might be a potential challenge regarding the signage, and whether it meets the test in Beavis. The issue isn't about financial loss, that was specifically allowed in Beavis, so that would go against you. Rather, the key term - the "parking charge" of £100 - is very small compared to other text on that sign, and I don't know how visble the signs are from the perspective of a driver. So that would be your angle.

One issue we can't tell from what you have posted is the dates. Was there a windscreen ticket? If so, was the notice to keeper received between day 29 and 56 after the parking date?

Redivi's point won't save the OP if someone at the store observed the driver park up and leave the site - so then you're back to relying on the single point about signage, and you're going to have to go to small claims court if you want to test that point.

Ultimately, it does look like this PPC isn't one that makes mass claims, has had the sign and letter written by someone who has obviously read and understood POFA, and actually their attitude does appear to be about managing customer access to a shop's small car park...they don't look like the cowboys in all the other threads in this forum.
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UKSoutherner
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 22:44
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QUOTE (NorthSouth @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 23:37) *
One issue we can't tell from what you have posted is the dates. Was there a windscreen ticket? If so, was the notice to keeper received between day 29 and 56 after the parking date?


The car was parked there on 20th January. There was no windscreen ticket. The letter was posted on 30th January.

The reason for parking there was to visit another organisation on the site, so the driver did not leave the site.

This post has been edited by UKSoutherner: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 22:51
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Jlc
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 22:58
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‘Loss’ does not apply here. It’s a contractual charge - let’s call it a tariff but a large one. They would argue the driver accepted the offer to park at that rate.

The NtK would need to arrive within 14 days - it appears it did.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NorthSouth
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 23:12
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QUOTE (UKSoutherner @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 22:44) *
The reason for parking there was to visit another organisation on the site, so the driver did not leave the site.

OK, then the most fruitful course of action may be to go to the store and ask nicely for them to cancel the charges on that basis. It costs you nothing to ask.
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UKSoutherner
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 23:24
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QUOTE (NorthSouth @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 00:12) *
QUOTE (UKSoutherner @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 22:44) *
The reason for parking there was to visit another organisation on the site, so the driver did not leave the site.

OK, then the most fruitful course of action may be to go to the store and ask nicely for them to cancel the charges on that basis. It costs you nothing to ask.
t
I've asked the CEO of the organisation that was visited if he knew the manager, but he told me they have no say in the matter - it comes from their head office. However, it's worth a try if that's the only option open to me.
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NorthSouth
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 23:45
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Getting it cancelled by head office is by far the best route.

The alternative is to appeal to the parking company on the basis that the signage is inadequate, and the key term - the parking fee of £100 - is in small writing, hidden in a block of text. Chances are, though, that the parking company will reject your appeal. The IAS that they refer to in their letter is NOT an independent alternate dispute resolution service - it is owned and controlled by the same people who own and control Gladstones Solicitors, a notorious "robo-claims" firm that have "a close and cosy relationship with parking companies" (this is from Hansard - so don't bother appealing further to IAS. Then it is a waiting game - if they issue a claim against you in small claims court, then you can raise a defence - on the basis of the signage being inadequate, and possibly lack of proof of landowner authority. And then you see how it goes. However, the usual and 'best' defence points are not available to you, because the parking company have complied with POFA.
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UKSoutherner
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 00:33
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Does it make a difference that they don't own the land? It's owned and managed by GJM Properties Ltd: http://www.shakespearecentre.co.uk/contact.php
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 07:54
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Not unless you can get them to show they dont have a contract with the landowner. At POPLA you would have a chance, at the IAS you dont.
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Redivi
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 08:36
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This is a case where all the contracts, signs and bay markings would need to be inspected in a court action

It's unusual for the land-owner of a retail park to employ a PPC to enforce only the bays for customers visiting an individual business
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mdann52
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 11:41
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Looking at the above, I'm minded to echo Jlc's advice about the early discount looking attractive. A lot of the usual avenues are not available here, so taking this to court is a much larger gamble than usual. Ultimately, it gets down to just how much effort the OP is willing to put in here.
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UKSoutherner
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 18:09
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 09:36) *
It's unusual for the land-owner of a retail park to employ a PPC to enforce only the bays for customers visiting an individual business


I've seen no evidence of cameras. I've been parking in this car park for years and never seen one. Ableworld has only recently arrived. I suspect a staff member nipped out and took a photo on their phone 🙄. Perhaps I should ask to see the photographic evidence.
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Redivi
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 18:34
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My personal view is that you shouldn't ask for evidence

It implies that you agree that you might owe the payment and doesn't leave an escape route if it's produced
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Jlc
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 19:52
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Any CCTV around?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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UKSoutherner
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:00
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:52) *
Any CCTV around?

Not that I've seen. I can go and look if it's significant; it's only 10 mins from my home.
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