Car Hire Insurance Nightmare, Dealing with a Kafka-esque nightmare Options

[eric79]

Hey all

Wonder if anyone can help me untangle an absolute nightmare I've found myself in, wedged between the incompetence of Avis car hire and a shoddy 3rd party insurance company who won't pay out the £688 I've been I think erroneously charged by Avis for a scratch on a wreck of a car that they let me rent out?

Aware that this isn't the core purpose of this site in any way so no worries if not, but I would dearly love to have some method of recourse to both entities who are making my life hell via their collective incompetence / indifference!

Many thanks in advance

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[The Rookie]

Well there is clearly a lot more to this story than you've told us, or at least not clearly.

1, You hired a car from Avis?
2, When it was returned a scratch was found they are trying to charge you for?
3, Where does the insurer fit into this, did you take out your own non Avis policy?
4, Why won't the insurer (whoever they are or whatever they are to do with it) pay out? Taking a punt you told them the car was already damaged when you collected it, so they said great, not our issue then as you're insured for driving it and not failing to inspect it?

You can put Avis to proof over the cost of the repair, not unusual for them (all rental companies) to charge out each issue as if it's being repaired separately and then fix a whole lot in one go which will cost them a lot less - 4 scratches on one panel cost pretty much the same to repair as 1 scratch but they've billed it out 4 times.

[eric79]

Well there is clearly a lot more to this story than you've told us, or at least not clearly.

1, You hired a car from Avis?
2, When it was returned a scratch was found they are trying to charge you for?
3, Where does the insurer fit into this, did you take out your own non Avis policy?
4, Why won't the insurer (whoever they are or whatever they are to do with it) pay out? Taking a punt you told them the car was already damaged when you collected it, so they said great, not our issue then as you're insured for driving it and not failing to inspect it?

You can put Avis to proof over the cost of the repair, not unusual for them (all rental companies) to charge out each issue as if it's being repaired separately and then fix a whole lot in one go which will cost them a lot less - 4 scratches on one panel cost pretty much the same to repair as 1 scratch but they've billed it out 4 times.

Hey Rookie!

Thanks for getting back to me - sorry for the lack of detail just wanted to make sure this was a viable forum to get help.

To your points:

1. Yes, we did
2. Yes exactly, the scratch was not something we were aware of happening during our rental, and given the appalling state of the car in the first place (many dents and scratches), it is incredible that we would be charged for something which I feel may well have already been there and yes what you mention re "You can put Avis to proof over the cost of the repair, not unusual for them (all rental companies) to charge out each issue as if it's being repaired separately and then fix a whole lot in one go which will cost them a lot less - 4 scratches on one panel cost pretty much the same to repair as 1 scratch but they've billed it out 4 times." sounds like it might be the case here as there were scratches all over that panel.
3. Yes, I took out a non-Avis policy with iwantcarinsurance.com and they are refusing to pay out the £688 to cover cost of repair on one technicality - that we dont have the original rental agreement piece of paper - this is because the Avis representative at the depot took this from us and didn't return it (he wanted to examine the pre-rental damage report). After multiple attempts to get this doc from Avis (like 2.5 hours on hold to their non existent customer service line x3 occasions), I don't know how on earth to get this doc. And to stress, we've sent iwantcarinsurance every single piece of digital documentation we've had from Avis explaining the charges and damage report and invoice etc so this feels very much like trying to get us on a technicality.
4. See above, refusing to pay out as we don't have a piece of paper that the Avis representative took from us at the point of returning the vehicle (I should probably have asked for it back but 3 kids in an Avis carpark with shuttle buses leaving urgently to catch flights doesn't leave one across detail enough)

thanks in advance for any pointers as to what I should do next, hugely appreciated.

v best

Eric

[The Rookie]

3. Send Avis a subject access request for it.

Do the insurers T&Cs say you must supply it (or a copy) with a claim, if not complain they are trying to move the goalposts.

With the quality of modern phone cameras, I always take 8 photos when I rent a car, 3 each side and front and back, good enough to check later to see if a scratch was there already. Ask Avis for the photos from the end of the previous rental, they will almost certainly have them (or they the scratch may be visible in the pre-rental paperwork of previous damage), to see what it shows. I know what rental companies are like, I once picked up a Mercedes Vito that looked like it had been in a demolition Derby (there were 16 bumps and scrapes noted in the handover paperwork), but I still found 2 more.

Of course the fact you don't remember scratching it is isn't relevant, it's whether it happened during your rental that is relevant, even if it's while parked up you're still liable.

[eric79]

3. Send Avis a subject access request for it.

Do the insurers T&Cs say you must supply it (or a copy) with a claim, if not complain they are trying to move the goalposts.

With the quality of modern phone cameras, I always take 8 photos when I rent a car, 3 each side and front and back, good enough to check later to see if a scratch was there already. Ask Avis for the photos from the end of the previous rental, they will almost certainly have them (or they the scratch may be visible in the pre-rental paperwork of previous damage), to see what it shows. I know what rental companies are like, I once picked up a Mercedes Vito that looked like it had been in a demolition Derby (there were 16 bumps and scrapes noted in the handover paperwork), but I still found 2 more.

Of course the fact you don't remember scratching it is isn't relevant, it's whether it happened during your rental that is relevant, even if it's while parked up you're still liable.

Thanks again The Rookie, good shouts - what is a subject access request though please? thanks! And yes they do say that we have to supply it with a claim, lamentably. Hence my only hope is getting it from Avis I assume?

[Jlc]

what is a subject access request though please?

The right you have under the Data Protection Act to have access to your personal information - Here.

[cp8759]

http://iwantcarinsurance.com/ doesn't seem to exist, what's the name of the underwriter of the policy?

[eric79]

Hey all

Sorry should have clarified, the underwriter is Zurich on the policy.

As an update, i have just heard back from Avis (well after the 15 days in which they say they will reply) to say the following:

"Dear Mr. xxxxxxx,

Thank you for your contact regarding your rental xxxxxxxxxxx.

I would like to apologise for the late reply to your request. I can also confirm that attached you can find all the available documentation for this charge. Unfortunately, due to a technical issue we are unable to provide you with the Rental Agreement that you signed at the beginning of the rental.

On the basis of this supporting evidence, I can confirm that we consider the charges to be correctly raised and we shall look to uphold in kind.

Thank you for giving me a chance to be of assistance.

Yours sincerely,

Jesús Brito"

Surely, surely I have some recourse to this email since the technical issue he refers to is going to mean I cannot make an insurance claim via Zurich?? This is driving me (no pun intended) absolutely mad with rage and confusion now! Any help as ever so gratefully received!

best
Eric

[cp8759]

So send a simple reply:

----------------------

Dear Avis,

If you are unable to evidence the signed agreement, I put it to you that no charges are enforceable. This is because, in the absence of a signed contract, I cannot be expected to remember all the terms of the small print and I am not willing to simply take your word for what was agreed. While I accept a contract did exist, the exact terms of that contract are for you to prove if you wish to rely on those terms to impose charges upon me. I am sure you will appreciate that neither I nor any court would simply accept your say-so as to what was agreed.

It therefore follows that the charges are disputed and I point out that it is not ultimately up to Avis whether such charges are upheld or not. Should you be able to produce a signed copy of the agreement I will of course be more than happy to revisit the matter.

Yours faithfully,

[eric79]

Thank you so much cp8759!

This is exactly what i needed! Huge appreciation

[The Slithy Tove]

Unfortunately, due to a technical issue we are unable to provide you with the Rental Agreement that you signed at the beginning of the rental.

I was cheekily thinking of one step further than what cp8759 suggested. If there is no rental agreement to show, then there was no rental in the first place.
Though Avis might then decide in that case the car was TWOC'd, so cp's approach is probably better.

[cp8759]

Unfortunately, due to a technical issue we are unable to provide you with the Rental Agreement that you signed at the beginning of the rental.

I was cheekily thinking of one step further than what cp8759 suggested. If there is no rental agreement to show, then there was no rental in the first place.
Though Avis might then decide in that case the car was TWOC'd, so cp's approach is probably better.

I don't think a court would agree that no contract ever existed in the first place, and if it gets to court eric79 cannot lie.

[eric79]

Unfortunately, due to a technical issue we are unable to provide you with the Rental Agreement that you signed at the beginning of the rental.

I was cheekily thinking of one step further than what cp8759 suggested. If there is no rental agreement to show, then there was no rental in the first place.
Though Avis might then decide in that case the car was TWOC'd, so cp's approach is probably better.

I don't think a court would agree that no contract ever existed in the first place, and if it gets to court eric79 cannot lie.

Thanks The Slithy Tove and cp8759 once again - much appreciated! I can at least see a possible way out of this nightmare via the fact that they've admitted to a technical issue which is going to cost me nearly £700 in lost insurance claims.

I'll let you know as and when they respond although even now im not holding my breath because every experience I've had with Avis up to now has been one of total and utter abnegation of any responsibility on their part.

Thanks again

[cp8759]

But as the letter says, whether you have to pay the £700 is not actually up to them, unless you're willing to voluntarily hand over the money, they would need to persuade a court to order you to pay. In the meantime, I'd cancel any bank cards they have the details of.

[eric79]

Ah sorry, I should have clarified - they charged me the £688 onto my credit card at the depot in Italy so I have already paid it.

I am trying to reclaim that amount now from Zurich, who are refusing to do so without the document that the Avis representative took from me in Florence and which they are now, via technical error, not able to supply to me.

Hopefully that helps clarify my situation!

Thanks again for the support

[cp8759]

Ah ok, so you might need to take them to the small claims court to get the money back. Thinking about it, it may be easier to pursue a claim against Zurich via the financial ombudsman.

Have you tried a charge-back on your card?

[eric79]

ok thanks - but how can i claim against Zurich? They lamentably make it clear in their T&Cs that without the original hire doc, they will not pay out a claim. But given that Avis took the doc from me and are unable to re-send it, I am stuck in limbo.

No I haven't thought of contesting the claim via Amex - will speak to them now! thanks again for the great suggestion

[cp8759]

You can claim against Zurich by making a complaint, see https://www.zurich.co.uk/support/make-a-complaint

However I'd go for Amex in the first instance, it's a disputed charge and in the circumstances, I understand Avis has to prove you agreed to the charge, it's not up to you to show that you didn't. Also send the draft letter to Avis but with a slight tweak:

------------------

Dear Avis,

If you are unable to evidence the signed agreement, I put it to you that no charges are enforceable. This is because, in the absence of a signed contract, I cannot be expected to remember all the terms of the small print and I am not willing to simply take your word for what was agreed. While I accept a contract did exist, the exact terms of that contract are for you to prove if you wish to rely on those terms to impose charges upon me. I am sure you will appreciate that neither I nor any court would simply accept your say-so as to what was agreed.

It therefore follows that the charges are disputed and I point out that it is not ultimately up to Avis whether such charges are upheld or not. Should you be able to produce a signed copy of the agreement I will of course be more than happy to reconsider my position, but at present I maintain that the charges have not been lawfully imposed and Avis should provide a full refund unless it is able to show that the charges were contractually agreed.

Yours faithfully,

[eric79]

Thanks cp8759! Will let you know what their response is!! Really happy to have some recourse on this - have been utterly depressed about it until this point.

[The Rookie]

If there is no contract to enforce it, you should request that charge back on that credit card billing.

As for Zurich, you make a formal complaint and then when/if they reject they MUST give you the opportunity to appeal to the financial ombudsman, it costs you NOTHING and they may offer you a part resolution to save them the cost of fighting it. Had that with my household insurance, they still denied my claim but offered me some 'compensation' for the poor service, compensation that just happened to be a similar sum to my claim (funny that right!), and no claim on my record either.