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Motorcycle NIP in NYP B6451 Possible Incorrect Vehicle Identified
ian505050
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 13:37
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I have been issued with a NIP as attached ending in 520

It states I was doing 69mph in a 60mph zone at 19:25 on 12.9.18 on my motorcycle.

I received the NIP in the post 3 days later on 15.9.18.

The NIP was issued by North Yorkshire Police and has the correct Registration but they have not provided any evidence photos (which is common practice)

The Location of the offence is detailed as B6451 Long Stoop Farm, South of A59 Junction. I know this route extremely well as I have travelled this route over the past few years hundreds of times. Google 'long stoop harrogate HG3 1SN' to find the location of the farm close to the B6451

On the date of the alleged offence I was following another random motorcycle at the speed limit along some twisty roads past The Sun Inn (Near Harrogate) and heading north along the B6451.

As you are travelling along the B6451 North Bound you approach a section of road approximately 0.8 km long that is very straight but has a slight hidden dip and a lay-by where a speed camera van parks (hides) facing the traffic approaching the A59 Junction. I am very aware of this speed camera van location as about 6 months ago I received a speeding ticket from the van parked in this location.

As I approached the 0.8km section of road where my bike is visible to the speed camera van I slowed down to perhaps 50mph just to be super safe. At that point I noticed that the random motorcycle in front of me did not slow down and in-fact accelerated as we started the straight where the speed camera van was located. I felt sorry for the guy as he had not noticed the speed camera van in the distance and he accelerated to perhaps 70 to 80 mph as he approached the camera van. It seems he panic braked about 300m before the camera van which was probably too late an he would more than likely receive a ticket.

I am without doubt that I did not travel at more than 50mph for the full section of of the road and clearly nowhere near 69mph (that's quite a big difference)

So....... Fast forward 3 days later and I was shocked to receive a NIP from that camera van at that very location! After spending many hours scratching my head I can only assume that the camera van must have taken a speed reading and associated front on photo from the motorcycle in front of me and then as we passed the camera van must have taken a photo of the rear of my motorcycle in error.

Both bikes as far as I can tell were a similar type and similar colour-ish. It should be noted that several lorries passed across the line of sight of the speed camera operator as both bikes approached the camera van. Hopefully the front facing photograph the police hold with the speed reading is not of my vehicle but as they make it difficult to view the photos before going to court I am unsure what to do.

I have 28 Days to respond to the NIP so any advice in the meantime would be greatly appreciated.

See Attached NIP and image of the location of the alleged offence from google maps




Location of alleged offence

B6451
Harrogate HG3 1SD
53.996217, -1.691582




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post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 13:37
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localdriver
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 14:46
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:10) *
I was trying to state that they don't have an instantaneous speed of my bike so the only way that they could calculate my speed would be an average speed using 2 different photos of my bike in 2 different location... before the van... and after the van. Even if they went to this effort they would find i was driving very slow.


It doesn't work like that. In the case of cars etc. with a front numberplate, the operator considers that the vehicle is speeding and comfirms that with a reading from an approved device, which gives an almost instant readout of the speed. There may be a subsequent picture confirming the details of the numberplate and vehicle when the vehicle is closer to the operator.

In the case of motorcycles, the initial consideration, confirmation and reading is the same, but it is the rear numberplate that is recorded after the motorcycle has passed the operator.

It may be that the operator has recorded the speed of the other motorcycle, but has been confused and recorded that it was your motorcycle that was speeding. That is one reason why they have asked for photographs, to compare the details of the speeding motorcycle with your one, and see if the operator may have made a mistake.

This post has been edited by localdriver: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 14:48
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666
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 14:57
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:10) *
QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 14:53) *
QUOTE (ian505050 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 14:44) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 13:55) *
Average speeds don't come into play. The reading is virtually instantaneous.


Yes the instantaneous reading is of the motorcycle in front of me. They don't have an instantaneous reading of my motorcycle behind. My motorcycle is simply in the back ground in the photo of the offending motorcycle.

The evidence they have on my motorcycle is:-

A video of me driving past at 50mph of less
A Photo of the front of my motorcycle but without the instantaneous speed recorded
A Photo of the rear of my bike with my number plate showing but again without an instantaneous speed recorded.

All they have to work on is average speed as its seems they either failed to record my instantaneous speed as i watch approaching probably because they had just caught the guy in front of me speeding.


Why would they want an average speed? It's not the second bike they're after.

You have confirmation (your post #8) that it is the rider of the leading vehicle who has committed the offence. Your issue is one of mistaken identity, not of your speed. As advised above, send them some photos.


I was trying to state that they don't have an instantaneous speed of my bike so the only way that they could calculate my speed would be an average speed using 2 different photos of my bike in 2 different location... before the van... and after the van. Even if they went to this effort they would find i was driving very slow.


OK. Assuming they accept that your bike was the second one, they would not need to do any calculations because they would be too late to send you a NIP.
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Jlc
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:03
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They won't be doing any calculations. It's point and shoot.

Either they do have a ping on the OP's bike or not.

So it's either a ping from one bike and then the plate from the wrong bike. Or it has been known for bikes travelling in groups to be pinned with the single speed measurement from the leading bike - but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

There will be a full video session - but it can be difficult to work out what's happened without seeing the relevant section.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:04


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

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The Rookie
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:05
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QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:57) *
OK. Assuming they accept that your bike was the second one, they would not need to do any calculations because they would be too late to send you a NIP.

He already has a NIP, for that bike for that location, why would they need to send another?

I'm not sure why they need photos of your bike, I would imagine it would be easy to tell that the first bike that was pinged is different from the second bike they have the number plate of, I fear they haven't understood the nature of your concern.


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ian505050
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:26
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:05) *
QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:57) *
OK. Assuming they accept that your bike was the second one, they would not need to do any calculations because they would be too late to send you a NIP.

He already has a NIP, for that bike for that location, why would they need to send another?

I'm not sure why they need photos of your bike, I would imagine it would be easy to tell that the first bike that was pinged is different from the second bike they have the number plate of, I fear they haven't understood the nature of your concern.


The NIP shows the incorrect speed as its not my bike and they would have realised this. If we were both speeding they would need to issue me a nip at whatever speed i was doing.

Both bikes a similar design and colour. They want a front view of my bike to double check what i have said is correct.

To be fair its i am 99.9% sure they understood what my issue/complaint was. It almost like it had happened several times in the past with motorcycles from the tone of the voice of the police operator on the phone.
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Jlc
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:34
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:26) *
...they would need to issue me a nip at whatever speed i was doing.

Actually, only that you were (allegedly) exceeding the prescribed limit. But many Forces do include the speed.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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666
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:35
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:05) *
QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:57) *
OK. Assuming they accept that your bike was the second one, they would not need to do any calculations because they would be too late to send you a NIP.

He already has a NIP, for that bike for that location, why would they need to send another?



Good point. Maybe I'm as confused as the police seem to be.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:13
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:26) *
The NIP shows the incorrect speed as its not my bike and they would have realised this. If we were both speeding they would need to issue me a nip at whatever speed i was doing.

Considering an NIP need only describe the offence and need not mention a speed they’d not have to do anything of the sort.


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ian505050
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 11:24
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Well i received an email today after The Police reviewed their own evidence.

It confirmed i was correct and i was not speeding.

I was advised that I will receive a NIP cancellation letter in the post shortly. I will post a copy on here.

Hopefully the Police can put something in place to avoid this happening again as the consequences for me would have been a huge increase on my insurance premiums over 5 years (about £2000) and for others it could have consequently resulted in loss of employment.

Where can i send an official complain so hopefully something gets changed and 100's of innocent motorists like my self don't get incorrectly fined in the future.

The reason i want to send an official complaint as this is the 5th traffic violation that is incorrectly issued to me in the past year and it is incredibly frustrating and stressful. In the past 10 years of driving i am yet to receive a single correctly issued traffic violation and it seems that the number of incorrect violations being issued is on the increase.

Its also very annoying that they withhold the evidence meaning that unless you have a recording of everything you did in the past the you are more than likely to accept punishment for crimes/offences you did not commit.
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Jlc
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 11:50
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That's good news. You do seem to have been rather unlucky...


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 12:34
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 12:24) *
Its also very annoying that they withhold the evidence meaning that unless you have a recording of everything you did in the past the you are more than likely to accept punishment for crimes/offences you did not commit.

I believe that is the wrong way to look at it. The course/fixed penalty system is a way for those who know they have offended to have the matter disposed of without court action. The savings made by short-circuiting the system are shared - cheaper for you (considerably), cheaper for them. Those (like you) who believe they are innocent can simply opt for a court hearing. In this particular case you didn't even have to go to that trouble. An informal approach led to the matter being resolved.

If the police had to go to the trouble (and expense) of disclosing their evidence before a driver had to decide whether or not to accept an out-of-court disposal there would be far less saving to be made and would inevitably push up the cost of courses and FPs.
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ian505050
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 12:55
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 13:34) *
QUOTE (ian505050 @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 12:24) *
Its also very annoying that they withhold the evidence meaning that unless you have a recording of everything you did in the past the you are more than likely to accept punishment for crimes/offences you did not commit.

I believe that is the wrong way to look at it. The course/fixed penalty system is a way for those who know they have offended to have the matter disposed of without court action. The savings made by short-circuiting the system are shared - cheaper for you (considerably), cheaper for them. Those (like you) who believe they are innocent can simply opt for a court hearing. In this particular case you didn't even have to go to that trouble. An informal approach led to the matter being resolved.

If the police had to go to the trouble (and expense) of disclosing their evidence before a driver had to decide whether or not to accept an out-of-court disposal there would be far less saving to be made and would inevitably push up the cost of courses and FPs.


I understand where you are coming from there must be 1000's of people that accept points and fines simply because the police do not provide photos of the offence on the NIP. I thought one of the main principles of the police is Justice. The current system NYP have fights against justice on many cases.

Simply opting for a court hearing is not so simple for the majority of people as it has the threat of an increased fine and also requesting time off work and child care etc... etc... Most people select the points and fine to avoid the hassle of court. This results in the police end up with a stat that they caught another speeder and they increased revenue.
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Logician
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 14:27
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No, you still have it about face. The standard method of deciding on whether an offence has been committed is a court hearing and if guilt is established, then there is guidance as to the sentence. A fixed penalty is a reduction from the standard fine for those who accept their guilt. If some people who do not accept their guilt nevertheless choose not to contest the charge and accept a fixed penalty to avoid taking time off work, arranging childcare and generally avoiding the hassle of a court appearance, then that is their choice. Do you want to deny that to them?

Clearly you have either been exceptionally unlucky or there is something amiss in the way NYP carry out speed enforcement on motorbikes. A letter suggesting a review of their methods and improved training for officers would seem to be well justified.


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southpaw82
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 14:48
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 13:55) *
I thought one of the main principles of the police is Justice.

Who on earth told you that?


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NewJudge
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 16:30
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 13:55) *
I thought one of the main principles of the police is Justice.

No. The police detect and prosecute people whom they believe to be offenders (or sometimes offer them fixed penalties or courses as an alternative). Justice is a matter for the courts (hence your choice to go there if you are offered an alternative penalty but believe you are innocent). I believe you should work on the basis that if you are suspected of committing a criminal offence you will be called to court - and this will lead to all the hassle and inconveniences that you describe. If you are offered a more convenient alternative you should see this as a bonus but if innocent people choose to accept out of court disposals for expediency that's their choice.
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Incandescent
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 19:30
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 13:34) *
QUOTE (ian505050 @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 12:24) *
Its also very annoying that they withhold the evidence meaning that unless you have a recording of everything you did in the past the you are more than likely to accept punishment for crimes/offences you did not commit.

I believe that is the wrong way to look at it. The course/fixed penalty system is a way for those who know they have offended to have the matter disposed of without court action. The savings made by short-circuiting the system are shared - cheaper for you (considerably), cheaper for them. Those (like you) who believe they are innocent can simply opt for a court hearing. In this particular case you didn't even have to go to that trouble. An informal approach led to the matter being resolved.

If the police had to go to the trouble (and expense) of disclosing their evidence before a driver had to decide whether or not to accept an out-of-court disposal there would be far less saving to be made and would inevitably push up the cost of courses and FPs.

"can simply opt for a court hearing". Yeah, right, and risk whacking out £1000 because the magistrates always believe the police and are always in a hurry to get finished for the day. It's a bit like the plea bargaining system in the US isn't it ? "plead guilty and you'll get 2 years, but if you take it all the way, and get found guilty its 20 years without parole"
The plain fact is that as far as motoring offences go, we just have a capricious punishment dispensing system, not a justice system

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 17:30) *
QUOTE (ian505050 @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 13:55) *
I thought one of the main principles of the police is Justice.

No. The police detect and prosecute people whom they believe to be offenders (or sometimes offer them fixed penalties or courses as an alternative). Justice is a matter for the courts (hence your choice to go there if you are offered an alternative penalty but believe you are innocent). I believe you should work on the basis that if you are suspected of committing a criminal offence you will be called to court - and this will lead to all the hassle and inconveniences that you describe. If you are offered a more convenient alternative you should see this as a bonus but if innocent people choose to accept out of court disposals for expediency that's their choice.

The voice of Oppression speaks !

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 19:28
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Logician
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 20:32
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 20:30) *
.........the magistrates always believe the police...


Now there you are quite wrong.



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Lodesman
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 20:34
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Incandescent wrote:-

[/quote]
"can simply opt for a court hearing". Yeah, right, and risk whacking out £1000 because the magistrates always believe the police and are always in a hurry to get finished for the day.
The plain fact is that as far as motoring offences go, we just have a capricious punishment dispensing system, not a justice system
[/quote]

Obviously you have made up your mind but allow me a reply.

1. If you don't offend you will never be involved in the process. Many, many thousands of motorists manage it every day without any difficulty. What is so difficult in keeping to the speed limits ?

2. As for being in a hurry to get away at the end of the day. In a 'traffic' court after a day of between 50 and 70 cases and despite trying to get all the attenders seen as early as possible, it is not uncommon to sit on until 6 or 7 in the evening to make sure everyone has been seen.

3. As for always believing the police, rubbish, the standard of evidence given by young officers is often pretty abysmal, senior officers who have seen it all are more savvy but, goodness knows, they should be trained to give credible evidence early on.
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 21:40
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QUOTE (Lodesman @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 21:34) *
Incandescent wrote:-

QUOTE

"can simply opt for a court hearing". Yeah, right, and risk whacking out £1000 because the magistrates always believe the police and are always in a hurry to get finished for the day.
The plain fact is that as far as motoring offences go, we just have a capricious punishment dispensing system, not a justice system


Obviously you have made up your mind but allow me a reply.

1. If you don't offend you will never be involved in the process. Many, many thousands of motorists manage it every day without any difficulty. What is so difficult in keeping to the speed limits ?

In a thread where a non-offender did just that? Out of step much?

--Churchmouse
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ian505050
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 11:07
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 22:40) *
QUOTE (Lodesman @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 21:34) *
Incandescent wrote:-

QUOTE

"can simply opt for a court hearing". Yeah, right, and risk whacking out £1000 because the magistrates always believe the police and are always in a hurry to get finished for the day.
The plain fact is that as far as motoring offences go, we just have a capricious punishment dispensing system, not a justice system


Obviously you have made up your mind but allow me a reply.

1. If you don't offend you will never be involved in the process. Many, many thousands of motorists manage it every day without any difficulty. What is so difficult in keeping to the speed limits ?

In a thread where a non-offender did just that? Out of step much?

--Churchmouse


Exactly what i thought.... if i did not come on this website for advise i could potentially have had 5 court appearances this year to defend non-offences i supposedly committed. Fortunately the good advice received on here has helped me convince the police i must be innocent and their evidence must be incorrect before they have asked me to attend court.

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